General Discussion

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)

70. Some important economists explain:

Wed Jul 8, 2015, 06:28 PM

Jul 2015

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026952900

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017275705

As I understand it, government employees in Greece have to pay their taxes.

Greece needs reform, but not just austerity. It needs a serious economic development plan. It also needs debt forgiveness -- as Germany did after WWII.

A Greece that can protect itself from invasions and massive immigration is indispensable to a secure Northern Europe. Greece will not be allowed to fail. It should not have been allowed to fail to the extent that it has.

The Greek crisis is not a game of "Shame on you, you lazy bums." Remember, Greece was under the heavy hand and rule of the Ottoman Empire until 1821. As recently as 1973-74, it was ruled by a Greek military junta.

Greece needs help, but not just a financial bail-out. It needs to reconsider its tax system, its property ownership system, many, many things. A better legal system in terms of recording property ownership and imposing taxes appropriately is, according to some news reports needed.

The oligarchs in Greece are at fault in this sense: they profited greatly from the chaotic Greek governments that they supported. The Frankfurter Allgemeine reported that rich Greeks took the bail-out money or some of it and hid it around the world including buying properties in Bulgaria.

The Germans are at fault for having allowed their banks to purchase or accept Greek debt without questioning the Greek system.

An economic development program that includes not just fiscal reform but also legal restructuring and reform and a workable tax system that makes sure that income is taxed, including the income from wealthy shippers.

But Greece, because of its geography and geology is a poor country. It has valuable ports and is very close to Turkey and as Richard Wolff points out in the video, Syria and ISIS.

No matter the morality of the matter, Germany is foolish to underestimate the worth of Greece to Germany itself. Germany has already made too many mistakes in its relationship with Greece to try to turn its back on the country now.

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A lot of people here seem to have no clue about what's happening in Greece..... [View all] brooklynite Jul 2015 OP

DU rec... SidDithers Jul 2015 #1

Thamks for the post. Wellstone ruled Jul 2015 #2

Nicely done. A HERETIC I AM Jul 2015 #3

A bit of a logical fallacy. zipplewrath Jul 2015 #8

When I lived there in the 60's.... A HERETIC I AM Jul 2015 #23

you realize your experience is now roughly 50 years old. zipplewrath Jul 2015 #33

Of course I do! A HERETIC I AM Jul 2015 #51

Not only 50 years old JackRiddler Jul 2015 #107

On this I agree: JDPriestly Jul 2015 #75

You know Munificence Jul 2015 #168

The banks had to know what would happen with that policy. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #178

well by that government hill2016 Jul 2015 #181

That was the Bush government -- anti-regulation. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #183

well hill2016 Jul 2015 #184

Unless they are redlining communities by racial prevalence, individual loans are and should JDPriestly Jul 2015 #185

There is a lot of maintaining of fiction to be done DFW Jul 2015 #59

Except that a healthy Greece is in Germany's interest. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #81

Some of that yes, some I disagree with DFW Jul 2015 #87

Western European and American values about good government developed JDPriestly Jul 2015 #99

Forgiveness will become involuntary and stretching out the debt is a myth DFW Jul 2015 #113

I so wish that I was not on an extended trip zipplewrath Jul 2015 #174

You could spend a week on that subject DFW Jul 2015 #189

"From the ECB? Their rules prohibit them from propping up failed banks." magical thyme Jul 2015 #88

I think you found it. timdog44 Jul 2015 #77

fair enough to point out the greece is corrupt and inefficient, but we all have problems there. unblock Jul 2015 #21

And I think most Americans would be surprised at how little income is reported in the US erronis Jul 2015 #28

The frolicking lords hate it when the sheep frolic too Fumesucker Jul 2015 #90

What is the lost tax revenue as a percent of GDP? Taitertots Jul 2015 #63

Some important economists explain: JDPriestly Jul 2015 #70

This is a great source to understand what is going on, Agnosticsherbet Jul 2015 #4

Thanks to you... quickesst Jul 2015 #5

Thanks a lot FlaGatorJD Jul 2015 #6

Why fail to mention Goldman Sachs by name since they were obviously very involved. think Jul 2015 #7

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2015 #10

Why does it matter which firm the Greek govt paid to do that? Recursion Jul 2015 #15

The 1st question the OP addressed was who was to blame. Doesn't Goldman Sachs share in that blame? think Jul 2015 #31

The people that caused the global economic disaster don't want to talk about lenders, just the Rex Jul 2015 #20

Robert Reich discusses it: elleng Jul 2015 #24

Thanks. Everywhere I look I see the stench of rampant capitalism erronis Jul 2015 #34

Thank you! Robert Reich's comments on GS's involvement are golden! /nt think Jul 2015 #40

Greece owes over 320 billion euros. Calista241 Jul 2015 #122

But a convenient bogeyman makes this whole thing so much easier. stevenleser Jul 2015 #123

Ah yes, when in doubt, blame a bank. Calista241 Jul 2015 #133

When a bank colludes to conceal a country's debt they shouldn't take any blame? think Jul 2015 #136

That poster asserted out that GS was involved with 2% of Greek debt. That barely warrants a mention stevenleser Jul 2015 #139

Who suggested GS is completely to blame? No one here has suggested that. think Jul 2015 #141

I didn't say that either. Calista241 Jul 2015 #140

Goldman Sachs started intervening in 2001 not 2005. And GS's role in hiding that debt allowed think Jul 2015 #144

GS has it's enablers, just because you know...the enormously wealthy need to be defended Rex Jul 2015 #124

Excellent explanation. greatauntoftriplets Jul 2015 #9

great post, though i disagree about the referendum -- unblock Jul 2015 #11

The opinion also lost me dismissing the referendum as a "huge mistake", forgetting that having Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #29

we, i understand why the *creditors* are calling it a huge mistake... unblock Jul 2015 #36

I think it is a mistake, insofar as.... Adrahil Jul 2015 #48

i don't think the greeks are expecting magic, i think they know there will be pain regardless. unblock Jul 2015 #49

In my experience, the public is not so nuanced in its thinking. Adrahil Jul 2015 #53

some austerity and righting of the ship has already happened, and there are other plans unblock Jul 2015 #54

because the OPer predicted that the vote would be 70% yes to more austerity. magical thyme Jul 2015 #115

70% prediction, turning out completely wrong? That has gotta hurt! Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #117

70% sounds about right for how wrong the OP usually is on any given topic. Rex Jul 2015 #121

It's his job to defend the wealthy. On that he is 100% LondonReign2 Jul 2015 #146

Good read underpants Jul 2015 #12

K&R Glassunion Jul 2015 #13

what needs to happen is a managed withdrawal from the Euro geek tragedy Jul 2015 #14

Honestly the Eurozone is a reality show at this point Recursion Jul 2015 #17

No kidding. pretty expensive show to produce nt geek tragedy Jul 2015 #25

It brought us Eurovision. joshcryer Jul 2015 #39

It's times like these that I wish I knew enough about video editing to.., Taitertots Jul 2015 #80

I'll do the voiceover Recursion Jul 2015 #83

I feel like somehow this is going to affect us here. craigmatic Jul 2015 #16

Greek vacations will probably get really cheap. Recursion Jul 2015 #22

Greece owed (as of March) the IMF 32 Billion Euros OnlinePoker Jul 2015 #42

We're on the hook for some of the IMF loans n/t Yo_Mama Jul 2015 #79

K&R! Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2015 #18

from Robert Reich elleng Jul 2015 #19

A lot of people will ignore that post, because it is negative about teh 1% and we cannot have that. Rex Jul 2015 #27

yeah so hill2016 Jul 2015 #100

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2015 #102

why not hill2016 Jul 2015 #106

LOL! Notice their tiny dig at Grayson? Rex Jul 2015 #116

"But it was totally leeee-gal" LondonReign2 Jul 2015 #148

Lloyd Blankfein called, said this is a great article. Explains it perfecly. Wants his money. n/t jtuck004 Jul 2015 #26

+1000 nt abelenkpe Jul 2015 #85

Nailed it! magical thyme Jul 2015 #118

+++ LondonReign2 Jul 2015 #150

Lol! neverforget Jul 2015 #155

What I want to know is... joshcryer Jul 2015 #30

Greece could have asked for that 50/50 deal, they wouldn't have gotten it geek tragedy Jul 2015 #38

One very good reason DFW Jul 2015 #44

knr! retrowire Jul 2015 #32

If you bought this explanation abelenkpe Jul 2015 #84

no no no retrowire Jul 2015 #86

WHOA, HOLD ON THERE!! ellennelle Jul 2015 #35

In order to jump start their economy, they have to go deeper into recession? Comrade Grumpy Jul 2015 #37

+1 Enthusiast Jul 2015 #67

EDIT: they can eat stray olive leaves...at their salons LondonReign2 Jul 2015 #151

Thank you, thank you Brooklynite...and a big "thanks" to your wife, too. Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #41

oh good grief!!! ellennelle Jul 2015 #47

Beg pardon? To what might you be referring? Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #50

Don't worry. If someone alerts and it is shot down 7-0, Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #62

Well, that does mollify me somewhat, Nye. Thanks for the soothing message... Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #69

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2015 #97

That wasn't the point of that post. Renew Deal Jul 2015 #64

But, it WAS the point of a post addressed personally to me in my OP by the same poster, Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #72

it's a simple problem to avoid Surya. Reply to facts with facts, not bigotry and name calling. magical thyme Jul 2015 #126

To conflate a sovereign nation's democratically elected government Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #128

bs. Just replacing one group of people being smeared with another group of people. magical thyme Jul 2015 #129

And, congratulations on beating your Trojan Horse Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #130

you raised the subject, not me. magical thyme Jul 2015 #131

An interesting take on the Greek crisis and IMF: Saviolo Jul 2015 #43

was just about to add this link ellennelle Jul 2015 #46

I still believe Greece should default. WDIM Jul 2015 #45

Going without imports would include going without most medicines Yo_Mama Jul 2015 #78

Well, if they are such a tiny insignificant country dumbcat Jul 2015 #95

I sure don't. cwydro Jul 2015 #52

Thanks brooklynite. (nt) pinto Jul 2015 #55

pensions have already been cut by 44%. magical thyme Jul 2015 #56

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2015 #61

that prediction was off a little neverforget Jul 2015 #98

So you attack him personally upthread and here you attack his wife. What do you have for an encore? stevenleser Jul 2015 #135

Actually we don't have kids... brooklynite Jul 2015 #175

I alerted on both posts and found others had previously alerted but they were upheld 4-3 stevenleser Jul 2015 #176

Anyone buying the OP's explanation needs to read your post. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2015 #94

That is the point of the 1%, the reason they exist, ME! ME! ME! MINE!!! LeftOfWest Jul 2015 #179

I agree on this! JDPriestly Jul 2015 #57

Excellent post, thank you! BlueEye Jul 2015 #58

4. Greece needs to leave the euro and default on all their foreign debt Taitertots Jul 2015 #60

would you feel the same way hill2016 Jul 2015 #105

Would a better referendum question have been as follows? Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #65

You Make It Sound Like the ECB, EC, and the IMF are Honest Brokers mckara Jul 2015 #66

It really is a colossal mess. EEO Jul 2015 #68

Sorry, no. There is fault aplenty to go around . . . markpkessinger Jul 2015 #71

by your argument hill2016 Jul 2015 #104

Of course not . . . markpkessinger Jul 2015 #109

does anyone remember when du became overrun with posts that could have come Doctor_J Jul 2015 #73

Should working-class Germans pay taxes to subsidize working-class Greeks? Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #74

Should working-class New Yorkers pay taxes to subsidize working-class Kansans? Fumesucker Jul 2015 #91

Yep. And in a federalized Europe, this would not be an issue. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #96

I suppose they should hang on to those subs though,...right? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #76

Hey brooklynite - thanks for this! calimary Jul 2015 #82

That doesn't mean they shouldn't proclaim their opinions. MineralMan Jul 2015 #89

You're missing something in your "blame" section. jeff47 Jul 2015 #92

did you know hill2016 Jul 2015 #101

Did you know that isn't actually true? jeff47 Jul 2015 #114

Actually, it is true. 90% of private debt contributed to the writedown. stevenleser Jul 2015 #134

That was after the Greeks had nationalized much of the debt. (nt) jeff47 Jul 2015 #152

I thought hill2016 Jul 2015 #182

It was. And then a large part of it was paid to private banks. jeff47 Jul 2015 #186

sorry hill2016 Jul 2015 #187

Yes. Greece had a housing bubble similar to Florida. jeff47 Jul 2015 #188

Sorry, this should have gone on the OP GliderGuider Jul 2015 #145

rec.. it is complicated. thx for summary Liberal_in_LA Jul 2015 #93

I heard something on Charlie Rose from an American correspondent in Greece frazzled Jul 2015 #103

If Greece decides to go on its own, they better beg to get in on theTPP. Hoyt Jul 2015 #108

Seriously? Move Greece from the Mediterranean and Aegean magical thyme Jul 2015 #127

Knew some folks wouldn't get it. Hoyt Jul 2015 #132

care to explain how or why Greece should try to join the Trans Pacific Partnership? magical thyme Jul 2015 #153

Because they need to be in every trade agreement they can get into. I don't think Hoyt Jul 2015 #154

well if you had a clue you might have suggested they try to join TTIP magical thyme Jul 2015 #156

Greece needs the one that is closest to being finalized, if you had a clue. Hoyt Jul 2015 #161

they're not a member of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperative, and never will be magical thyme Jul 2015 #165

Look, my point was Greece needs as many damn trade deals as they can get. No more living off Hoyt Jul 2015 #167

I gave you an obvious way out. you could have just said "the ttip instead of tpp" magical thyme Jul 2015 #172

I don't think that's the problem... brooklynite Jul 2015 #159

They could use some investment from foreign companies, but who is going to go there unless Hoyt Jul 2015 #162

What? MFrohike Jul 2015 #110

well hill2016 Jul 2015 #111

Answers MFrohike Jul 2015 #171

Regarding the consequences of #3, going back to the drachma bhikkhu Jul 2015 #112

Thank you for answering these questions! Miserable state of affairs for all. n/t freshwest Jul 2015 #119

You mean that 70% were going to vote Yes to Moar Austerity Please? magical thyme Jul 2015 #120

Nobody here buys anything the OP is selling. Rex Jul 2015 #125

Observation 1: You chose to attack me rather than my analysis brooklynite Jul 2015 #157

Both cuts to austerity and a debt write-off are required. magical thyme Jul 2015 #163

NOBODY buys it. Thank you. LeftOfWest Jul 2015 #180

Apparently then, neither does the Greek Government brooklynite Jul 2015 #158

neither does the Troika...what? magical thyme Jul 2015 #160

Oh how sad, the OP says I attack them when I just point out the obvious everyone else notices. Rex Jul 2015 #164

Perhaps instead of insulting me... brooklynite Jul 2015 #170

Why is everyone thanking your wife? whatchamacallit Jul 2015 #137

She's the tax/finance expert who explained a lot of the details to me brooklynite Jul 2015 #142

Dig. I just reread your post whatchamacallit Jul 2015 #147

No idea, I guess people will just about believe anything they read on the Internets. Rex Jul 2015 #166

kick... Blue_Tires Jul 2015 #138

We bailed out the crooks from Wall Street who caused our recession fadedrose Jul 2015 #143

The people and government of Greece have no idea whats going on. CK_John Jul 2015 #149

-1 GliderGuider Jul 2015 #169

Yep, if only they would arrest Lloyd Blankfein, Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #173

Thanks for the information architect359 Jul 2015 #177