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Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
93. The unwillingness of the Greek government to govern is a large part of the problem
Mon Jul 13, 2015, 12:06 PM
Jul 2015

The European leaders and bankers are no sentimental softies but imo it's likely they'd have had a much easier time of putting together bailouts if the Greek government would have delivered the absolute minimum of a responsible government that's deeply in debt.

It's often noted that tax avoidance is something of a national sport. Tax collection is a challenge for any government but the Greek government's record has been consistently abysmal. What doesn't get discussed much is that workers in other European Union countries are extremely unamused at their tax dollars going to prop up a government that fails to collect billions of Euros in taxes every year.

These workers vote and are ready to bring down one government (Finland) over the issue. These workers see mostly just what's in front of them and they aren't impressed by the accurate argument that their economies have a built in advantage over nations like Greece.

The bottom line is that it's not only about a group of elites huddled in a room deciding how much of their hoard of gold they'll invest in Greece. It's also about European voters deciding whether or not the Greek government is going to finally get real.

I think Krugman is feeling a bit burnt by how ill prepared the Greek government has shown itself to be in dealing with today's foreseeable circumstances. They look like they wanted to lose the referendum and seemingly have no stomach for leaving the Euro and switching to Drachmas.

That switch would require sweating out the addiction to the Euro and they apparently are unwilling to do that. The Greek government would need to rise above itself to weather that switch (they'd have to resist endless pressure to give in to peoples demands that would quickly result in hyperinflation) and they'd need lots of trust from the populace to navigate through the turbulent, rock strewn, waters of the first years to get to the stability of having a manageable, sovereign, currency.

Frankly, I think Krugman is very disappointed in the Greek government. They are finding it convenient to allow the Germans, et alia, to force their hands to make economies. It would be better if a Greek government would rise up that owned the situation, and dealt with it.

Finally, I want to mention another thing that doesn't get mentioned much. Similar to what's happening here, but to a much greater degree, it's the youth of Greece that is paying the largest price for the fecklessness of past decades. And also worth mentioning are the people who didn't benefit from past excesses. Many people had their relatively modest pensions cut quite a bit.

P.S. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/greece-agrees-to-a-punishing-ultimatum-from-european-leaders/2015/07/13/4b6c2f2a-28f3-11e5-960f-22c4ba982ed4_story.html?hpid=z1

Well, I do agree with Krugman that the Greek people need more generous terms in order to grow their economy. I can only hope that this deal is mostly about posturing. I hope that if the Greek government shows it's acting faithfully then the European lenders will accordingly send along more cash for investment purposes. Something like, as tax collections improve, so do interest rates decline. As trust gets built, then more discretion is given in how to distribute funds.

This is politics and I hope the European lenders can find a path to quickly ramping up the aid to Greece. The level of austerity I see being proposed doesn't look sustainable. While I'm not a fan of the leadership Greece has been getting I do admire the fortitude of the people, and their great culture. I have no desire to see them punished for the bad acts of the bankers, lenders, and the governments of Greece and the rest of Europe.

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"The European project — a project I have always praised and supported" - Good to see Krugman PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #1
Just curious, how does the praise and support of an American professor truebluegreen Jul 2015 #5
Good question. I suppose nobody important could have read his columns. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #8
Like they read his anti-austerity columns? nt truebluegreen Jul 2015 #13
Not when Greece joined in 1981. Not when the Maastricht Treaty created the idea of the Euro in 1992 muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #66
complete ignorance of history pscot Jul 2015 #78
Hence, you're merely assigning responsibility due to bias LanternWaste Jul 2015 #98
You mean the Nobel Prize winning economist? Gosh, nobody listens to him. Hekate Jul 2015 #10
Well, certainly in this country nobody does. truebluegreen Jul 2015 #12
Many of us listen to every word Krugman utters. Nitram Jul 2015 #69
<sigh> My point was that our fearless leaders pay no heed, truebluegreen Jul 2015 #71
Obama wanted to stimulate the economy a great deal more and made a number of attempts. Nitram Jul 2015 #73
<sigh> Obama's big stimulus package--first big move out of the gate-- truebluegreen Jul 2015 #76
<sigh> perhaps you need an anti-depressant <sigh> Nitram Jul 2015 #77
Pick whichever answer you like. truebluegreen Jul 2015 #79
I'll go for a combination of the two. Nitram Jul 2015 #81
This is a nasty post rosesaylavee Jul 2015 #95
Anyone who <sighs> before every reply is engaging in very passive agressive behavior. Nitram Jul 2015 #102
So that justifies rosesaylavee Jul 2015 #114
I did not reply with "whatever reply comes to mind." Nitram Jul 2015 #117
Not every post, only 2 out of 3 replies to you, specifically. truebluegreen Jul 2015 #115
Once I can overlook. Twice is just plain rude. Nitram Jul 2015 #118
"I wonder why that is." truebluegreen Jul 2015 #120
Obama started out by asking for something link *half* Krugman's recommendation magical thyme Jul 2015 #96
Actually, It Was The Threat Of A Senate Filibuster DallasNE Jul 2015 #108
Adverse, that's a rather silly misreading of Krugman's piece. Nitram Jul 2015 #70
supporting the European project is *not* the same a supporting the structure of the Euro magical thyme Jul 2015 #97
Excellent post. Thank you. nt truebluegreen Jul 2015 #101
Excellent post Warpy Jul 2015 #106
from what I've read, it's the same as the previous deal, with the addition of handing ove $50M euros magical thyme Jul 2015 #109
According to a speaker on the BBC TexasMommaWithAHat Jul 2015 #123
oh, god, if Krugman is depressed, I'm depressed...how awful... CTyankee Jul 2015 #2
"Insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #9
I think the usual suspects who like to rail about truebluegreen Jul 2015 #3
He's right. This is looking more and more like Germany trying to undo 1945. PSPS Jul 2015 #4
A couple of weeks ago I watched Judgement at Nuremburg and saw something very CTyankee Jul 2015 #6
I have not seen it. SusanCalvin Jul 2015 #28
It was about one of the last war trials of German judges in Nazi Germany. CTyankee Jul 2015 #63
Kulture PeoViejo Jul 2015 #7
Conservatives playing power games GermanWatcher Jul 2015 #11
If there was a vote in Germany (similar to the referendum in Greece) asking whether to lend PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #14
Hmm, just my opinion... GermanWatcher Jul 2015 #15
Few understand that most of the money went to the banks, not to the Greek people. Ghost Dog Jul 2015 #90
You raise the most important aspect to this PSPS Jul 2015 #23
nope hill2016 Jul 2015 #27
You know I never said that PSPS Jul 2015 #34
first of all hill2016 Jul 2015 #37
So, you're suggesting someone take over Greece? brooklynite Jul 2015 #54
Sure, banks make Greece sulphurdunn Jul 2015 #67
I don't think anyone wants to "take over" Greece. They don't need to. They can rhett o rick Jul 2015 #105
Agreed..you can't run a cross-border 'sovereign' currency without having a cross-border sovereign Volaris Jul 2015 #55
Banks fail every month in America hack89 Jul 2015 #72
98-2 to not lend to Greece I was in Germany shortly after the last loan was given. The German people stevenleser Jul 2015 #32
Poll numbers support new loans GermanWatcher Jul 2015 #110
Link please. I don't believe that at all. nt stevenleser Jul 2015 #121
Very well said malaise Jul 2015 #16
If only its death throes weren't dragging us all down... GermanWatcher Jul 2015 #17
only hill2016 Jul 2015 #39
Check your debts to China and then use your brain n/t malaise Jul 2015 #45
the US has never defaulted on its debt obligations hill2016 Jul 2015 #47
If the U.S. does default someday, it most likely will be on the Social Security fund as bondholders lostnfound Jul 2015 #64
+ 1,000,000,000 What You Said !!! WillyT Jul 2015 #80
No austerity for Goldman Sachs, it got bailed out via the backdoor of the AIG bailout. n/t PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #112
The US has defaulted a few times in its history. PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #111
You have sovereignty only if you have a viable economy metalbot Jul 2015 #65
This is correct. Implementation requires time as well as will. Ghost Dog Jul 2015 #91
This message was self-deleted by its author passiveporcupine Jul 2015 #26
Not sure why Krugman ever expected bankers to think outside the box. randome Jul 2015 #18
Will Germany try to block a recovery? salib Jul 2015 #19
Krugman never asked the hard question: Why should EU taxpayers pay for Greek spending? FLPanhandle Jul 2015 #20
Suspicious timing GermanWatcher Jul 2015 #21
Welcome to DU. Your posts have been informative.. snagglepuss Jul 2015 #24
Would you expect German bankers to hold onto their bonds with a near certainty of losing money? randome Jul 2015 #25
Good presentation of the right wing spin... kristopher Jul 2015 #22
Whatever you call it, these deals have to be sold domestically BeyondGeography Jul 2015 #85
I noticed that hill2016 Jul 2015 #29
...... daleanime Jul 2015 #31
The US isn't a member of the EU. herding cats Jul 2015 #35
you sure? hill2016 Jul 2015 #40
The EU? herding cats Jul 2015 #43
nope hill2016 Jul 2015 #46
Really? herding cats Jul 2015 #50
they hill2016 Jul 2015 #51
I don't understand what you're saying. herding cats Jul 2015 #53
Why should the US loan money to Greece? Travis_0004 Jul 2015 #84
Tsipras has been in repeated phone contact with US Treasury Secretary Lew. I wonder how PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #42
Oh, you know, it's complicated. herding cats Jul 2015 #48
We have our own awoke_in_2003 Jul 2015 #94
K&R..... daleanime Jul 2015 #30
It is not just Germany, even though sadoldgirl Jul 2015 #33
^^^YUP ^^^ LittleGirl Jul 2015 #56
The Euro isn't a bad idea on paper. moondust Jul 2015 #62
I guess Mario Draghi and Darth Schauble got into quite an argument. roamer65 Jul 2015 #36
This from Robert Reich: Ccarmona Jul 2015 #38
Thank you for posting this. Ilsa Jul 2015 #82
+ 1,000,000,000 What You Said !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jul 2015 #83
While the banks do have blame that was a deal they made with the Greek government Lee-Lee Jul 2015 #100
The "Greek government" that cooked the books and made the deals truebluegreen Jul 2015 #104
Nope Lee-Lee Jul 2015 #122
Got it. 'Nuff said. truebluegreen Jul 2015 #128
Crime and fraud should have consequences Lee-Lee Jul 2015 #129
my solution rdking647 Jul 2015 #41
except hill2016 Jul 2015 #44
it depends who the banks creditors are rdking647 Jul 2015 #57
the creditors hill2016 Jul 2015 #59
In other words: Grexit, okay sadoldgirl Jul 2015 #49
Unilateral action like that would get them thrown out of the EU muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #68
Do you think rich Greeks have their money in Greek banks? hack89 Jul 2015 #74
All ordinary Greeks with any savings have them in Greeek banks. Nitram Jul 2015 #103
Right but that's not what that person asked. Do you think Greek 1%'ers have their money in Greek stevenleser Jul 2015 #119
sorry, I overlooked the word "rich". Nitram Jul 2015 #127
The 1% took their money out of the Greek banks ages ago. Rex Jul 2015 #125
Wow MFrohike Jul 2015 #52
Who is behind the curve? BillZBubb Jul 2015 #58
Heh MFrohike Jul 2015 #60
Well, by the same token, Ghost Dog Jul 2015 #92
Maybe not quite that far MFrohike Jul 2015 #113
Can Greece pull off a successful exit? Will Germany try to block a recovery? DFW Jul 2015 #61
HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Jul 2015 #75
here's my read, and yes, the economics are quite secondary -- unblock Jul 2015 #86
Good analysis. But I'd add in a strong measure of punitive intent as well GliderGuider Jul 2015 #87
indeed. unblock Jul 2015 #88
That's it right there. Rex Jul 2015 #126
I thought Krugman was in favor of the coup a week or so ago Doctor_J Jul 2015 #89
The unwillingness of the Greek government to govern is a large part of the problem Babel_17 Jul 2015 #93
K & R Dont call me Shirley Jul 2015 #99
Maybe the "European Union" PATRICK Jul 2015 #107
K&R. Thanks for posting. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #116
All countries should now be wary of the multinational investment vulture. Rex Jul 2015 #124
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