General Discussion

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

4. It's all in the framing.

Tue Jul 14, 2015, 12:46 AM

Jul 2015

"Let's figure out how to try to end racism" tends to produce a more productive dialog than a sneering "white people are SO privileged!" assertion.

Just as "join me in condemning the racist attacks on Serena Williams" is less confrontational than posting about "feasting on white tears".

Of course, there are people in this world who are more interested in stirring up racial animosity than in actually having a civilized debate. Unfortunately.

An analogy would be approaching the problem of America's disproportionate imprisonment of minorities by starting a thread with the title "Why do so many black men commit crimes and go to prison?", then wait for the (justifiably) hostile responses to roll in, then say, disingenuously, "but WHY are black people so FRAGILE about this? Why is it so HARD to talk to them about this problem?"

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Highlight:

White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism [View all] Zenlitened Jul 2015 OP

Respect is a two way street, however Prism Jul 2015 #1

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2015 #7

... cwydro Jul 2015 #10

Well said. madfloridian Jul 2015 #11

Thank you. 840high Jul 2015 #16

Well put flamingdem Jul 2015 #27

Well said. Doubtful if those who need to will actually hear your words . . . Journeyman Jul 2015 #29

When I--a white woman--was running for City Council, I said the words "white privilege" in a debate femmedem Jul 2015 #30

White silence then? romanic Jul 2015 #38

This isn't really about privilege though Prism Jul 2015 #76

I can not discuss it with my yuiyoshida Jul 2015 #169

I don't see it that way at all malaise Jul 2015 #40

Let's examine another equivalent Prism Jul 2015 #73

Say the word "breeders," say "white tears," and I'll turn, walk away, phylny Jul 2015 #173

insulting maybe, but most of the time those making the insult have no power to oppress yurbud Jul 2015 #177

But its not about the power to oppress... CANDO Jul 2015 #196

When you break it down like that, the whole exercise seems kinda cheap and chickenshit. Throd Jul 2015 #205

Well said, malaise. YoungDemCA Jul 2015 #74

This is exactly how I see it. CharlotteVale Jul 2015 #83

Excellent point re Rude Pundit. I'd add Jon Stewart, John Oliver, etc Zenlitened Jul 2015 #115

Rudie doesn't mind offending people to make his point malaise Jul 2015 #153

Great posts from you and malaise and great effort on your part. Number23 Jul 2015 #168

Thank you, it's kind of you to share that affirmation. Zenlitened Jul 2015 #176

+1 Quayblue Jul 2015 #121

to paraprase what you said, using a corporate chiche HFRN Jul 2015 #66

Wise words, Prism and ChazII Jul 2015 #68

Ideally, yes, respect would be a two-way street... Zenlitened Jul 2015 #103

Maturity is truly balanced Prism Jul 2015 #143

Yes yes and yes.... MellowDem Jul 2015 #160

You are exactly right Prism Jul 2015 #165

Bull manure... Spatened Jul 2015 #180

I have only read what is excerpted, clearly nothing there is remotely hostile, so I assume the randys1 Jul 2015 #110

Perfect. 99Forever Jul 2015 #144

^^^ This. And that is my comment on "race," "racism," "privilege" in DU.nt Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #154

bingo! Snow Leopard Jul 2015 #175

vox.com heaven05 Jul 2015 #182

Respect from me is reflexively given to all, but easily lost. hunter Jul 2015 #187

The funny thing is oppressors don't like to think of themselves as oppressors 951-Riverside Jul 2015 #2

Yep GummyBearz Jul 2015 #15

It doesn't help to use the term "oppressors" so generally. madfloridian Jul 2015 #23

Not humph - but you'd better malaise Jul 2015 #67

Who are the oppressors? How do we identify them? By their actions or is the evidence only skin deep? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2015 #87

implying something you can't quite say? bettyellen Jul 2015 #92

That's kinda what I'm asking. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2015 #113

If racists are deemed to be deemed racist by the color of their skin? Seriously? bettyellen Jul 2015 #116

I don't think #allanypeople are anything Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2015 #119

Oh so very true! kenfrequed Jul 2015 #104

K&R Solly Mack Jul 2015 #3

It's all in the framing. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #4

That's not an apt analogy at all Scootaloo Jul 2015 #5

It's a hostile, argumentative way to frame the issue. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #6

Your analogy is still not an apt one. Scootaloo Jul 2015 #22

Ikr Person 2713 Jul 2015 #170

"people in this world who are more interested in stirring up racial animosity" < Mostly white ones. jtuck004 Jul 2015 #19

Perfect example of a race baiter JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #28

Or, maybe you are just incorrect. Since it's a simple fact, and true. It may be jtuck004 Jul 2015 #35

I don't think it's time is over unfortunately JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #45

I say its time is over because I think the country is over. It's too integral to our success, jtuck004 Jul 2015 #50

I hope you are right JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #52

Don't you think that our system also allows us to thwart the evil that men do? LuvLoogie Jul 2015 #60

Have you taken a thoughtful look at Congress lately? jtuck004 Jul 2015 #78

What country would you give rise to after killing this one? LuvLoogie Jul 2015 #204

I didn't say I would kill it, you did. I said it would kill itself. What comes after is not up jtuck004 Jul 2015 #206

God I hope the time is over, but not yet. Wait till the vile, filthy, disgusting puke fuck randys1 Jul 2015 #118

that may be accurate for anyone who focuses on format rather than content in any given discussion. LanternWaste Jul 2015 #70

Here's how a real grown-up does it. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #75

Reverse racism gwheezie Jul 2015 #8

"Serena is a national treasure" Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #9

Maybe I didn't explain my opinion clearly gwheezie Jul 2015 #12

"It is not up to black folks to end racism". Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #13

Some white people want black people to admit they're racist.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #18

Thank you so much! Getting black people to admit some "reverse racism" means that it absolves Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2015 #166

It gets better with each generation... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #179

That's not actually true gollygee Jul 2015 #185

There are examples on this page of racists desperate to pass on their tradition of hate... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #193

I agree it can gollygee Jul 2015 #195

Privileged white people dont believe, as you can see in this thread, that racism is their randys1 Jul 2015 #112

thank you Skittles Jul 2015 #21

^^This artislife Jul 2015 #81

K&R Starry Messenger Jul 2015 #14

Some whites act like you're projecting onto them the entire history of racism and get angry.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #17

Exactly. nt sufrommich Jul 2015 #34

I will, but not in the way you think. lapislzi Jul 2015 #58

What part of the US are you from? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #97

Metro NY area lapislzi Jul 2015 #107

I wondered where that mindset came from that POC aren't supposed to help you deal with it.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #111

I never said I was smart. lapislzi Jul 2015 #125

FWIW, IMO you've expressed things pretty well. Zenlitened Jul 2015 #141

I was raised an Air Force Brat... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #150

no one likes to be stereotyped Skittles Jul 2015 #20

Totally spot on DustyJoe Jul 2015 #59

..... 840high Jul 2015 #203

You know what I can't stand about stereotypers? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2015 #88

Or enslaved, or refused service in a hotel or restaurant. Or questioned when if you were white randys1 Jul 2015 #114

OMG Skittles Jul 2015 #171

Reccing for truth nt MrScorpio Jul 2015 #24

Racism has its roots in ,,,, Cryptoad Jul 2015 #25

Sadly, racism will never disappear. It's Exilednight Jul 2015 #61

So, this title: "Serena Williams Drinks, Bathes In, And Makes Lemonade With White Tears" betsuni Jul 2015 #26

This is what I don't get,who reads on DU sufrommich Jul 2015 #39

So if I make an offensive statement about "black people", Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #43

Please,just stop with the reverse racism crap. A black man wrote an sufrommich Jul 2015 #47

Plus 1 JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #51

You posts in this thread are the epitome of calm reasoning. sufrommich Jul 2015 #54

I'll probably get some indignant response from someone JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #63

+++ Starry Messenger Jul 2015 #55

Then it should read "bathes in racists tears" instead of a blanket insult 7962 Jul 2015 #80

This has been on DU before, and I'm glad it's here again gollygee Jul 2015 #31

I see the "tone" argument is being bandied about sufrommich Jul 2015 #32

LOL Just once gollygee Jul 2015 #33

Good point. It's only minorities that need to watch their words sufrommich Jul 2015 #36

And always with the "shush, stop being so childish and immature, let the real grown-ups talk." betsuni Jul 2015 #41

Yep, perfect description. nt sufrommich Jul 2015 #42

Uh-Huh! Look at how these fools talked to me in that other thread. Ridiculously condescending. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jul 2015 #167

I think some White members on here romanic Jul 2015 #37

There's a reason that Barack Obama is President and the "lemonade with white tears" guy is not. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #44

I don't know about reactions - linking article BY a white person - not my words JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #48

And that's why we don't expect bloggers- like the Rude Pundit - to POTUS standards- bettyellen Jul 2015 #82

Certainly not *this* blogger. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #85

Or *any* blogger outside academia, really. I get it though- bettyellen Jul 2015 #86

You mean like this response to me Kingofalldems Jul 2015 #46

heaven05 is a senior citizen JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #49

One group told to suck it up on a message board, the other murdered at will by cops and randys1 Jul 2015 #122

Pretty much. romanic Jul 2015 #209

Thanks. Kingofalldems Jul 2015 #210

you dont cure racism, by spreading more stereotypes and generalizations nt HFRN Jul 2015 #53

Racism towards black people or towards white people? n/t JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #56

either nt HFRN Jul 2015 #57

That's where the discussion dissolves to pieces JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #62

the OP was 'White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism' HFRN Jul 2015 #64

okay - so you aren' t familiar with where this OP came from - context is everything JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #69

I'm not going to bother citing the red herrings, rationalizations and false assumptions in your post HFRN Jul 2015 #71

I have no chip on my shoulder? JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #72

And your interaction here is text book illustration of white privilege in America. randys1 Jul 2015 #124

Generally speaking, people who benefit from the mechanisms of oppression rarely want to admit to it me b zola Jul 2015 #65

The Serena Williams OP to which you refer wasn't "talking to" whites, it was "talking at" them. lumberjack_jeff Jul 2015 #77

Up thread someone suggested they phrase things like Obama does, lol. bettyellen Jul 2015 #84

Does anyone ever wring their hands that... lumberjack_jeff Jul 2015 #89

Well I think some people enjoy snark but avoid serious commentary and they actually might learn some bettyellen Jul 2015 #91

To the extent that there is a serious point behind that op lumberjack_jeff Jul 2015 #95

I think it goes way beyond her muscles- same as it does with Michele O. bettyellen Jul 2015 #99

The Serena thing is solely about race, like with Michelle, as you say. randys1 Jul 2015 #126

Well I think there's a fair amount of sexism that intersects there- bettyellen Jul 2015 #156

Oops, absolutely. randys1 Jul 2015 #158

I am half brown half white to clarify artislife Jul 2015 #79

How long before the privileged class lets go of their bullshit? randys1 Jul 2015 #127

"I say give it a try..." Iggo Jul 2015 #90

When will people admit that there will always be racist trolls LittleBlue Jul 2015 #93

So give up and ignore racists? Okay then..... bettyellen Jul 2015 #94

You could, you know, actually be doing something to help the black community LittleBlue Jul 2015 #96

with all due respect Quayblue Jul 2015 #98

Roof and trolls have one thing in common LittleBlue Jul 2015 #101

I disagree. Quayblue Jul 2015 #120

Nice assumption, but it's actually a dodge. Silencing dissent is your answer. Noted. bettyellen Jul 2015 #100

As a POC, what are you doing to accomplish a resolution to this? randys1 Jul 2015 #128

Nothing LittleBlue Jul 2015 #151

Who is doing the trolling? randys1 Jul 2015 #157

not you heaven05 Jul 2015 #192

actually keeping heaven05 Jul 2015 #191

Some of the responses in this awoke_in_2003 Jul 2015 #102

Butt hurt is the phrase, for sure. And it never stops. randys1 Jul 2015 #129

we live all our lives swimming in a sea of white privilege. Agnosticsherbet Jul 2015 #105

Absolutely. A SYMPTON of it IS the DENIAL of it. Why cant they see that!!! randys1 Jul 2015 #159

You got that right. KamaAina Jul 2015 #106

+1000 smirkymonkey Jul 2015 #108

Because people think they're being attacked ibegurpard Jul 2015 #109

maybe it's all the race-baiting trainwrecks? MisterP Jul 2015 #117

You consider Kama's post RACE BAITING? Seriously? randys1 Jul 2015 #131

President Obama never refers to "white privilege" or "white tears". Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #135

Now all of a sudden President Obama Quayblue Jul 2015 #147

I don't remember MLK snarking about "white tears" either. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #148

go ahead and hold on to that if you must nt Quayblue Jul 2015 #152

I am stunned how white people will drag MLK or Obama out when they think they randys1 Jul 2015 #161

Blatant denial of institutional racism right here on DU taught_me_patience Jul 2015 #123

Did you alert on the post that denied institutional racism? Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #130

You just can't help yourself, can you. You do realize that people here can see right Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2015 #136

THANK YOU Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #137

Any time. I know you're joking since there's no fucking way you'd Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2015 #139

Thank you sincerely for that suggestion. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #142

Exactly! "White people should be reminded of how privileged they are on a regular basis." Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2015 #145

Cool, I guess you and I are both in the 63% majority of that poll. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #146

We could find more common ground if we can recognize that it was Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2015 #149

The results of the poll is an example of white privilege. randys1 Jul 2015 #162

But there's no such thing..... even if there were. We need to keep it quiet and Guy Whitey Corngood Jul 2015 #163

If half or more of so called liberals are still stuck on stupid when it comes to this, or randys1 Jul 2015 #164

No doubt gollygee Jul 2015 #186

Oh it is heaven05 Jul 2015 #188

The primal scream in November 2008 when the presidency was seized from the grasp of white males, Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #198

ummm, ummm, ummmm heaven05 Jul 2015 #184

I know artislife Jul 2015 #132

Yep, same folks do it everyday, yet I find new ones in this thread. randys1 Jul 2015 #133

I fear I'll say this more bluntly than I intend to, hughee99 Jul 2015 #134

they dont want to have a conversation HFRN Jul 2015 #138

Heh. ^ Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #155

How we react is a measure of our own character, or lack thereof. Zenlitened Jul 2015 #172

If someone tells you that your opinion doesn't matter, before they even hear it, simply hughee99 Jul 2015 #174

You say, " they tend to be less open to new ideas"... Zenlitened Jul 2015 #178

If you want someone to listen to you, telling them to shut up, listen and agree is a bad way to go hughee99 Jul 2015 #194

it's the newest meme, don't you know Skittles Jul 2015 #181

Not quite true, imho. lovemydog Jul 2015 #197

What if you aren't thinking about learning about baseball, and someone starts hughee99 Jul 2015 #199

I learn more from someone who knows about baseball than me. lovemydog Jul 2015 #200

If you really want to learn about racial issues, you can do the same thing. hughee99 Jul 2015 #201

That thread title was bad. Turin_C3PO Jul 2015 #140

white privilege is a very fragile thing heaven05 Jul 2015 #183

I think you're exactly right. Zenlitened Jul 2015 #189

no the ground is firm, so far heaven05 Jul 2015 #190

I keep reading that you can't start a conversation about race with the wrong language JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #207

astute analysis heaven05 Jul 2015 #211

It's not difficult at all. It's uncomfortable for some, but not difficult. locdlib Jul 2015 #202

why? because they would have to admit they like 'white priviledge'. pansypoo53219 Jul 2015 #208

I Believe Your Simple Post. . . ProfessorGAC Jul 2015 #212