General Discussion

Yupster

(14,308 posts)

89. It all comes down to whether secession was legal or not

Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:18 AM

Jul 2015

If it was legal, then Davis and Lee resigned their offices in the US, became citizens of a foreign country and therefore could hardly be traitors to the US.

That was up to the Supreme Court to decide.

The Constitution was silent on secession. The Tenth Amendment says any powers not granted to the federal government belongs to the states. His argument was that the states had the right to secede, they had exercised that right and therefore he was an imprisoned head of a foreign state which had been conquered and was being occupied illegally by the US Army.

Yes, I do protest at calling anyone guilty who claims his innocence and demands a trial where he can make his argument.

Or you can just shoot defendants that you are sure are guilty anyway. That would typically be an argument heard more on other sites than ours though.

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Is it possible to destroy everything of Confederate origin? [View all] kentuck Jul 2015 OP

Tons of intolerable crap we will have to tolerate. Yep...I dont know of anyone randys1 Jul 2015 #1

It hurts... kentuck Jul 2015 #3

Right now on this board is a link about a Black Woman killed in custody randys1 Jul 2015 #6

In museums also? guillaumeb Jul 2015 #76

Confederate monuments at courthouses chalmers Jul 2015 #2

If there is disagreement about dismantling statues, then.... kentuck Jul 2015 #7

Why? That's just ridiculous chalmers Jul 2015 #10

Obviously, you are someone... kentuck Jul 2015 #11

I don't think we should put civil rights to a vote. Kalidurga Jul 2015 #13

Are you talking about free speech?? kentuck Jul 2015 #33

Here stevenleser Jul 2015 #74

No the civil right to not have to look at symbols of oppression in public spaces. Kalidurga Jul 2015 #75

I think most folks agree with you on that point... kentuck Jul 2015 #77

As far as what is public property. Kalidurga Jul 2015 #85

No, I can't agree with this Budgies Revenge Jul 2015 #81

That is not correct chalmers Jul 2015 #122

When was the Civil War over? kentuck Jul 2015 #123

Not to sound snarky here, Budgies Revenge Jul 2015 #124

The history defense is being used as a dodge chalmers Jul 2015 #132

I can't speak Budgies Revenge Jul 2015 #134

It's absurd to think that you can preserve history chalmers Jul 2015 #135

Hey, if I can make the universe's day a little brighter Budgies Revenge Jul 2015 #136

This Is a Sure RobinA Jul 2015 #91

All those monuments contain the names of people who died in a horrible war. Whether you agree with Erose999 Jul 2015 #92

If it's all destroyed couldn't that paradoxically be considered LiberalElite Jul 2015 #4

As easy as taking the bad juju out of holy religious books seveneyes Jul 2015 #5

Great sound ! kentuck Jul 2015 #8

Allowing individuals to fly the confederate flag is a good idea and very practical tularetom Jul 2015 #9

Unfortunately true. kentuck Jul 2015 #12

Not buying that one, at all. merrily Jul 2015 #17

It seems that way to me... kentuck Jul 2015 #23

Yes, sometimes people act like 2 year olds. However, confederate flags have been on private and merrily Jul 2015 #29

Sometimes perception is reality. kentuck Jul 2015 #36

It's only your perception that we are dealing with, though. merrily Jul 2015 #67

From what I have read.... kentuck Jul 2015 #70

Only since the late 50s. HooptieWagon Jul 2015 #45

You have to separate the strands of spaghetti. merrily Jul 2015 #14

What about private action on government ground? Igel Jul 2015 #57

What about it? Is any government forbidding it? merrily Jul 2015 #64

Like any religion gratuitous Jul 2015 #15

I agree. kentuck Jul 2015 #24

Sell 'em off to the cement heads? gratuitous Jul 2015 #46

I think there is a law against inciting to riot? kentuck Jul 2015 #50

Good post. 840high Jul 2015 #129

On Facebook today janlyn Jul 2015 #16

Tearing it down when it's on private property is wrong. It's also trespassing, which is against the merrily Jul 2015 #19

I would, but my great-grandmother was jewish. janlyn Jul 2015 #21

Different issue, but it would take me too long to explain the distinction I was making. merrily Jul 2015 #22

Is there some collective voice in the country demanding this...? LanternWaste Jul 2015 #18

I'm sure your comments have equal standing... kentuck Jul 2015 #30

In Richmond Va on Monument Ave there are six statues five of these honor Confederate leaders Leontius Jul 2015 #20

Are those statues on private property? The OP is about private property. merrily Jul 2015 #25

Actually, the OP is more comprehensive than only questioning private property. In fact it states as hlthe2b Jul 2015 #35

I would submit that Monument Avenue is a "museum". NT 1939 Jul 2015 #43

I agree... hlthe2b Jul 2015 #53

That be errasing history nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #26

How is it erasing history? We do away with all kinds of things all the time. No one pretends they merrily Jul 2015 #31

If you get rid of all things confederate you are errasing history nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #34

The confederate flag is in museums. The First Amendment certainly merrily Jul 2015 #37

You can critize Joe all you want, that is also 1 ammendment nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #40

Which goverment is threatening to fine or imprison anyone over confederate items on private property merrily Jul 2015 #41

Carefully read the OP nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #44

Good luck with this nadin. As you can see in my replies to the same poster, cwydro Jul 2015 #49

I know... nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #52

I did read the OP and I don't think he wants to erase history. merrily Jul 2015 #54

And I think several posters here nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #56

No. I do not think any of our history should be erased. kentuck Jul 2015 #59

You won't, and it will remain where it is nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #60

I didn't think you would call it un-American if you were advocating for it. But, what do you mean by merrily Jul 2015 #66

Yes. On gov't property. kentuck Jul 2015 #69

So, things on govt property moved by govt upon a vote of a majority, but not destroyed. merrily Jul 2015 #72

In the real world... kentuck Jul 2015 #78

The flag is a very special case: was re-introduced specifically as racist element by segregatists hlthe2b Jul 2015 #27

You can't erase history. cwydro Jul 2015 #28

If you don't fly a flag anymore, that means you erased history? Poor Betsy Ross. merrily Jul 2015 #32

The OP was in reference to destroying "everything of confederate origin." cwydro Jul 2015 #38

A confederate flag is not part of the discussion? merrily Jul 2015 #39

I told you once that I was not discussing the flag, nor did it seem to me that the OP cwydro Jul 2015 #47

Actually, you did not exclude the flag, even once. And I did not previously ignore what you said merrily Jul 2015 #51

Actually, I think she did exclude the flag: Ilsa Jul 2015 #55

Disagree with your interpretation. merrily Jul 2015 #58

This op is not about the flag. 840high Jul 2015 #130

No matter how hard they try... cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #42

In Germany, i saw stone sculptures and bronzes that honored the German NCjack Jul 2015 #63

Visited Manassas Battlefield National Park TeddyR Jul 2015 #48

Even the most die-hard enemies of all things Confederate would object. Igel Jul 2015 #61

But we should be clear on the meaning of "rights" kentuck Jul 2015 #62

Yes we can! XRubicon Jul 2015 #65

I would suggest... kentuck Jul 2015 #71

Too bad Uncle Billy isnt around today XRubicon Jul 2015 #73

Too bad everything is not so black and white.. kentuck Jul 2015 #79

There is no gray area in treason XRubicon Jul 2015 #80

The Confederates chose Yupster Jul 2015 #84

Um... that's treason XRubicon Jul 2015 #97

I wish ibegurpard Jul 2015 #68

It's a flag of traitors brush Jul 2015 #82

Lee and Davis were indicted for treason Yupster Jul 2015 #83

Sorry, what? brush Jul 2015 #88

It all comes down to whether secession was legal or not Yupster Jul 2015 #89

You're actually serious with this. Amazing! brush Jul 2015 #90

The right to a speedy and public trial is an important right Yupster Jul 2015 #93

The issue of whether secession was legal or not became moot . . . brush Jul 2015 #96

Read what you wrote Yupster Jul 2015 #99

You're the one that contended it was a legal issue that needed to be settled in court . . . brush Jul 2015 #100

I used to be a college history instructor Yupster Jul 2015 #105

I still don't get your argument brush Jul 2015 #107

You don't get the argument that a person should Yupster Jul 2015 #108

Found guilty before his execution? brush Jul 2015 #109

So if Hitler were captured after WWII, Yupster Jul 2015 #110

But the southern part of the US started the war brush Jul 2015 #111

Johnson was from Tennessee.... kentuck Jul 2015 #112

That's a noble sentiment brush Jul 2015 #113

I agree with that sentiment... kentuck Jul 2015 #114

Lincoln did offer compensation for slavery, but Yupster Jul 2015 #118

Johnson did not make a deal to get elected Yupster Jul 2015 #116

As far as white privilege is concerned, to understand history Yupster Jul 2015 #117

Everything you describe is white privilege, as the country was founded on it. brush Jul 2015 #119

Are you arguing that blacks have been treated Yupster Jul 2015 #120

That was my original point. brush Jul 2015 #121

Not executing (much less trying) Davis and not banning the flag Yupster Jul 2015 #125

Can't be done sadly. romanic Jul 2015 #86

If someone wants to have a confederate or a nazi flag on their own property it's their right. Marrah_G Jul 2015 #87

Years ago Tom Paxton had a song about trying to put an idea back in the box after it was out. jwirr Jul 2015 #94

This message was self-deleted by its author kentuck Jul 2015 #95

No, but we can give it one heck of a try. nt Zorra Jul 2015 #98

Um, when are we destroying the Washington monument, Mt. Rushmore? (Washington supported slavery.) Romulox Jul 2015 #101

Washington never commited treason XRubicon Jul 2015 #102

Support of slavery was a betrayal of everything we claim to stand for; an open wound to this day. nt Romulox Jul 2015 #104

Agreed still_one Jul 2015 #103

Actually more offended by anything named after reagun dembotoz Jul 2015 #106

There's no good reason to try to obliterate all memory of the Confederacy struggle4progress Jul 2015 #115

History should never be destroyed. Kablooie Jul 2015 #126

yep 840high Jul 2015 #131

....! KoKo Jul 2015 #133

No, nor should it be Warpy Jul 2015 #127

I am sorry to tell you this reddread Jul 2015 #128