General Discussion

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)

61. If we debate definitions we will not have time to discuss the heart of the issue

Thu Jul 23, 2015, 09:31 AM

Jul 2015

The overwhelming point is that modern racism, especially in its American form, started when they brought slaves from Africa, and they gave the white guys guns and whips to control the slaves. And the system was designed that way on purpose for the benefit of the wealthy elite to profit. Certain racist ideas developed to justify this.

The system has evolved over time and progressed with struggle, but this basic feature has remained where black people are on the bottom of a racial caste system, and white people have a level of privilege and that helps keep black people at the bottom. This all operates for the benefit of a wealthy elite who like having a stable system, and benefit mightily by having an endless supply of disempowered black people to exploit for profit with crappy jobs or by locking them in prison.

If you agree with that I think we are on the same page. I don't care if it is called mercantilism, capitalism or anything else.

You are talking about how morality is not function of economy. I agree morality is not a function of economy.

I'm talking about a system of racism as a system of social control. Not what makes a person bad, but how society got to be this way and who benefits.

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To End Racism and Police Brutality, End Capitalism! [View all] AOR Jul 2015 OP

barter, swap, and trade will get rid of the racists. nice to know nt msongs Jul 2015 #1

Police States come in all flavors. Downwinder Jul 2015 #2

LOL SunSeeker Jul 2015 #3

Last time I checked the UK was a capitalist country. Nye Bevan Jul 2015 #4

They still have plenty of racism Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #5

so does Cuba , probably even worse in cuba JI7 Jul 2015 #9

Who said anything about Cuba? I thought we were talking about ending capitalism? Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #10

what does that mean ? ending capitalism and replacing it with what ? JI7 Jul 2015 #11

Workers control, community control, democracy Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #12

can you give examples where it has happened and racism or other bigotry went away ? JI7 Jul 2015 #14

There are zero examples of capitalism ending racism. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #17

or maybe just focusing on ending racism in itself and acknowledging JI7 Jul 2015 #18

I agree we should focus on that. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #21

Racism existed long before capitalism davidn3600 Jul 2015 #26

So you're talking about the psychology problem, like what makes people have hate in their heart ? Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #29

it's cultural also, the racist cops and others don't always benefit financially themselves JI7 Jul 2015 #32

Social Identity Theory davidn3600 Jul 2015 #39

Your timeline is messed up davidn3600 Jul 2015 #33

I don't think so. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #37

That's for you. Igel Jul 2015 #56

If we debate definitions we will not have time to discuss the heart of the issue Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #61

+1 AOR Jul 2015 #15

In other words FrodosPet Jul 2015 #53

Workers control of production. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #54

"Workers control of production" Those are just words strung together. Throd Jul 2015 #94

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_control Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #95

How is that any different from an HOA Telcontar Jul 2015 #174

Very different actually, and you start with how this works nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #180

Um, that is some cirxular reasoning Telcontar Jul 2015 #199

You don't nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #203

Worker owned cooperatives and banks, democratic workplaces, living wages, etc. Dont call me Shirley Jul 2015 #74

Social democracy. nt hifiguy Jul 2015 #124

Ask black Cubans about that one. BainsBane Jul 2015 #6

yup, i was waiting for actual examples JI7 Jul 2015 #8

If you think racism in Cuba is bad you should take a look at the United States, it's 100 times worse Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #22

Take a look at the US? BainsBane Jul 2015 #23

Are you talking about psychology, like what makes people have hate in their heart ? Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #25

No, i'm talking about racism that developed out of slavery BainsBane Jul 2015 #42

I think you are confusing slave mode of production with slave as commodity in capitalist system. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #44

Pre-modern day slave societies had ZERO to do... AOR Jul 2015 #27

"free labor" BainsBane Jul 2015 #31

I think you are confusing slave mode of production with slave as commodity in capitalist system. Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #41

Orthodox Marxism defines capitalism BainsBane Jul 2015 #46

There are free wage laborers in this picture Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #50

The problem is that Marx never talked of Slavery as more than just a primitive form nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #198

More nonsense from you Nadin... AOR Jul 2015 #201

Go there, here, you are not going to make any headway nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #209

Please stop with the world-salad... AOR Jul 2015 #51

Read Capitalism and Slavery by Eric Williams... AOR Jul 2015 #43

For a less reductionist Marxist take on race BainsBane Jul 2015 #7

Parsing and dicing Bains... AOR Jul 2015 #13

what is the historical reality which shows end of capitalism resulted in end of racism JI7 Jul 2015 #16

Institutionilized racism is a by-product... AOR Jul 2015 #20

Provide evidence BainsBane Jul 2015 #38

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #106

You mean the actual *American* left nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #181

And again more nonsense from you... AOR Jul 2015 #202

Quoting from the small sector of the American left that is despised nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #204

Lol that was a few of hundreds... AOR Jul 2015 #207

No he did not nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #212

Yes, actually BainsBane Jul 2015 #19

"Cultural Marxists"... AOR Jul 2015 #24

Proves me wrong about what? BainsBane Jul 2015 #28

would you consider "will twain" a scholar ? JI7 Jul 2015 #30

OMG BainsBane Jul 2015 #35

not totally sure yet JI7 Jul 2015 #45

He keeps using my DU name BainsBane Jul 2015 #47

yes, it could be someone other than WT JI7 Jul 2015 #48

Try this Twain... AOR Jul 2015 #52

More like operating on a view of Marxism... AOR Jul 2015 #36

Spare me BainsBane Jul 2015 #40

Lol, you're the one that's flailing Bains... AOR Jul 2015 #49

Uh huh zappaman Jul 2015 #157

Let us not take our bitterness out on poor Larry.... AOR Jul 2015 #161

I love, Larry. zappaman Jul 2015 #162

Shemp was the best zappaman.... AOR Jul 2015 #165

Now you're just being silly. zappaman Jul 2015 #166

Nah, Shemp and Curley were my favorites... AOR Jul 2015 #169

To end capitalism, end racism (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #34

Capitalism came before racism. So your cute inversion makes no sense. nt Romulox Jul 2015 #57

No, it didn't. Not at all. Recursion Jul 2015 #58

European imperialism is a form of capitalism. Odd attempt at refutation. nt Romulox Jul 2015 #62

Can you provide dates as to when each started? Throd Jul 2015 #63

It's a silly request. nt Romulox Jul 2015 #64

A silly request in response to a silly statement. Throd Jul 2015 #85

Scarcity is a byproduct of reality. Taitertots Jul 2015 #55

I agree, so when are the SWAT raids start at college campuses nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #67

Isn't it implied that "the offenders" are bad cops? Taitertots Jul 2015 #72

No it is not nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #73

Or, we could work on both. It's not a zero-sum game. Starry Messenger Jul 2015 #59

Hi Starry Messenger... AOR Jul 2015 #65

End capitalism? AS IF we are still a nation that practices capitalism! Not even close. Rex Jul 2015 #60

Marxism is a failed economic and political theory. eom Kurska Jul 2015 #66

Pure Right Wing talking point and sloganeering... AOR Jul 2015 #75

No, it's just a fact. Dustbin of history and all that. Throd Jul 2015 #84

He's dead, Jim LittleBlue Jul 2015 #93

Okay, show me where Marxism hasn't failed. Kurska Jul 2015 #98

Lol, it's up to me to show you absolutely nothing... AOR Jul 2015 #99

It's not 'red-baiting' when you started a thread proclaiming the superiority of Marxist ideas muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #107

Not a single person in this thread that subscribes... AOR Jul 2015 #111

The extreme "left" (marxists) are the same as the extreme right (fascists). Kurska Jul 2015 #115

Your fear of Marx is a caricature you've created in your mind... AOR Jul 2015 #117

Libertarians make pretty much the same argument Major Nikon Jul 2015 #137

The few examples of Socialism... AOR Jul 2015 #167

Well you certainly make a compelling argument Major Nikon Jul 2015 #170

I love doctrinaire Marxists nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #179

Yes Syriza is a shining example of what your New Economy will look like Nadin Imao.... AOR Jul 2015 #183

Marx will not be it nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #184

Not proposing any solution Major Nikon... AOR Jul 2015 #182

So modern day American marxists have also given up on being at the forefront of the strugle nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #185

Many varieties of leftists... AOR Jul 2015 #189

Yup and you are a marxist espousing Marxist ideas nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #193

Nah, just a worker and sometimes member of the lumpen group... AOR Jul 2015 #200

The difference between you and Reed is that he actually nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #205

You have ZERO idea what I do... AOR Jul 2015 #208

Well, I am not part of your utopia, so that is fine nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #214

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #108

Tell you the same thing I tell religious folks... Positrons Jul 2015 #112

Lol... I made no claims whatsoever... AOR Jul 2015 #113

The article is offering Marxism as a solution. Kurska Jul 2015 #114

You certainly have all the talking points and slogans... AOR Jul 2015 #118

This isn't "MarxismUnderground" friend Kurska Jul 2015 #121

Marx has been discussed here for years in General Discussion... AOR Jul 2015 #122

"Marxism in the answer" Kurska Jul 2015 #126

You've offered up very little in your replies... AOR Jul 2015 #129

True, you don't really have to support your assertions Major Nikon Jul 2015 #136

Lol...I wouldn't hang my hat... AOR Jul 2015 #154

And yet you hang your hat on ad hominem Major Nikon Jul 2015 #158

One liners won't help you make your case... AOR Jul 2015 #160

You think your case is going all that well? Major Nikon Jul 2015 #164

Not making a case... AOR Jul 2015 #172

Only problem with this is... nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #68

Slavery yes....institutionalized racism no... AOR Jul 2015 #77

I disagree nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #78

I asked you for research and historical AOR Jul 2015 #83

My opinion is based on history nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #86

Class based discrimination... AOR Jul 2015 #88

Go ahead and continue to believe that nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #91

Sounds nice, but it's not going to happen in this country. MineralMan Jul 2015 #69

You ignore history to make such a claim... AOR Jul 2015 #79

Karl Marx is long dead. MineralMan Jul 2015 #87

Right Wing talking point and disguised red-baiting... AOR Jul 2015 #90

LOL! MineralMan Jul 2015 #96

"Right Wing talking point and disguised red-baiting..." EX500rider Jul 2015 #102

You may also see post 80 for response... AOR Jul 2015 #104

"Show me a successful Marxist country" is not a question that has any relevance....." EX500rider Jul 2015 #120

Again Marx is a critique of the oppressive relationship.... AOR Jul 2015 #123

Just an FYI. Marx would not recognize a lot of the nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #131

Oh, I'm sure that's true. MineralMan Jul 2015 #132

Oh they would and do nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #134

Then why bother Nadin ? AOR Jul 2015 #133

Now that is quite hysterical nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #135

The hysterics belong to you... AOR Jul 2015 #138

And here is the problem nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #139

What is real and what is illusion matters Nadin... AOR Jul 2015 #140

Well, then don't be too surprised nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #141

I'm not disappointed in the reaction in the least... AOR Jul 2015 #142

Those sites you mention alas...are not part of the new left nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #143

You're not paying attention... AOR Jul 2015 #145

Alas none speaks this way nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #147

It would seem Capitalism is what has failed... AOR Jul 2015 #148

Once again nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #149

Please there is only one form of Capitalism... AOR Jul 2015 #150

Even Marx and Engels were a tad more astute than that (A lot more) nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #152

Can't answer the question Nadin ? AOR Jul 2015 #153

The short answer is we don't know yet nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #155

We don't know yet ? AOR Jul 2015 #159

Sorry to disappoint you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #177

It's very simple Nadin... AOR Jul 2015 #186

This is quite hilarious nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #187

You are embarrassing yourself... AOR Jul 2015 #190

NAh, I just realize that capitalist relations are getting replaced nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #192

Being replaced as we speak ? AOR Jul 2015 #195

Yes, it is nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #196

Word salad is not clarity... AOR Jul 2015 #206

When we cannot dispute nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #216

So no Mom & Pop stores. No technology. No furniture that you don't build yourself. randome Jul 2015 #70

The discussion is the critque of capitalist social relations... AOR Jul 2015 #80

Which people? Because the collective will never come to true consensus on anything specific. FrodosPet Jul 2015 #178

You ignore the history of social change... AOR Jul 2015 #191

Bigotry and racism have existed always, there were ethnic purges and pogroms in ancient times. Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #71

Bigotry against different culture probably...institutionlized racism... not even close. AOR Jul 2015 #81

A winning campaign strategy!!! MADem Jul 2015 #76

Very large fail... AOR Jul 2015 #82

I'll pass on the whole end capitalism thing n/t taught_me_patience Jul 2015 #89

Pretty sure it's not about what you decide to pass on... n/t AOR Jul 2015 #92

So unaware and disconnected. LiberalAndProud Jul 2015 #97

Care to expand on the "glaring blind spot that simply isn't true" ? AOR Jul 2015 #100

LEOs Exist To Protect And Serve The 1% cantbeserious Jul 2015 #101

Indeed they do... AOR Jul 2015 #105

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2015 #109

Marxist.com? Dot COM? JHB Jul 2015 #103

You are offering a personal opinion... AOR Jul 2015 #110

OP fail. zappaman Jul 2015 #116

I figured it would be a stretch thinking posting... AOR Jul 2015 #119

How does one end capitalism? oberliner Jul 2015 #125

Fight,organize,and agitate for Labor over Capital in all things... AOR Jul 2015 #127

That seems a little vague oberliner Jul 2015 #128

None of us has the power individually... AOR Jul 2015 #130

No offense, but that's not a plan. Adrahil Jul 2015 #213

In the defense of the rest of the left... nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #217

I appreciate that..... Adrahil Jul 2015 #221

Well I posted a few years back nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #224

Excellent! Thanks again. Adrahil Jul 2015 #233

Just a fair warming. It is one dense book nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #234

The entire history of capitalist social relations... AOR Jul 2015 #223

More commedy nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #225

Don't you dare tell me you're out of words Nadin... AOR Jul 2015 #228

Nah, just finding you quite humorous at this point nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #229

Yep, lets take a break I want to read other things... AOR Jul 2015 #232

That is like saying that the Abolitionists shouldn't have denounced slavery... AOR Jul 2015 #218

Not even CLOSE to the same. Adrahil Jul 2015 #222

Better to leave things just as they are then... AOR Jul 2015 #227

When you carrying pictures of Chairman Mao..... Adrahil Jul 2015 #235

How long have me heard these platitudes ? AOR Jul 2015 #236

Except that abolitionists had a plan nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #226

The US Titantic is heading for the iceberg... AOR Jul 2015 #230

And then will come the glorious revolution nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #231

Indymedia comes to DU!!! BKH70041 Jul 2015 #144

Reality... AOR Jul 2015 #146

Suuuuuuuuure it is. BKH70041 Jul 2015 #175

This is just utterly silly and unsubstantiated nonsense mythology Jul 2015 #151

Has nothing to do "trying Marxism"... AOR Jul 2015 #156

Living in the U.S.S.R., wasn't too pleasant. They got rid of capitalism and their system collapsed. demosincebirth Jul 2015 #163

The discussion is about Capitalism... AOR Jul 2015 #168

So? demosincebirth Jul 2015 #171

So...if you have nothing of substance to add... AOR Jul 2015 #173

Agree to Disagree - I'm a capitalist - n/t JustAnotherGen Jul 2015 #176

Nothing wrong with that JustAnotherGen... AOR Jul 2015 #211

You are very brave. TBF Jul 2015 #188

Hi TBF... AOR Jul 2015 #194

Except to you nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #197

The KKE are the actual left in Greece... AOR Jul 2015 #210

More high commedy nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #220

The author has some good points but... WDIM Jul 2015 #215

The cops are in place for one reason... AOR Jul 2015 #219