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MineralMan

(151,495 posts)
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 11:38 AM Aug 2015

What most people don't understand about the TPP. [View all]

The United States cannot dictate terms in such a multi-national negotiation and agreement. There are 12 nations involved. Individual nations are all insisting that provisions designed to benefit those nations be included. The negotiations are all about give and take. Each nation has specific things it wants and has the power to insist on those things.

Trade-offs are part and parcel of all such multi-national trade agreements. The US has considerable clout, but so does Japan and Canada. So do all the other nations, but to a lesser degree. For the TPP to become finalized, multiple issues get resolved through compromise. Sovereign nations are all insistent that their point of view and issues beneficial to them be included. They use their power of rejection to influence the other nations involved. Since nobody except the negotiating parties have seen the sections that have been finalized, it's impossible to know what compromises have taken place already or what the underlying reasons for them were.

One thing is certain, though: No individual nation can dictate language in these agreements. It all has to be agreed to by the other nations. That is why TPA or the fast track authority is necessary. Without it, legislative bodies will attempt to add and subtract portions of the agreement. Congress, for example, which is controlled by Republicans, would inject countless amendments to an agreement, mostly to brag about to individual member's supporters. Each of those would have to be accepted by the other participating nations. That is an impossibility, since Congress is a collective idiot, and will attempt to force irrelevant issues into the agreement. That's why the TPA passed. It's essential that the negotiators have a free hand at drafting a final agreement. Everyone in Congress knows that.

The final version of the TPP will be extraordinarily complex, and almost impenetrable by people who do not have an extensive knowledge of and experience in international trade. Pundits, politicians and amateur analysts will seriously misinterpret the language of just about everything in the agreement. That process has already begun with leaked portions of drafts. Most of the opinions are heavily influenced by the interpreters' own biases.

Trade agreements are essential to balance the interests and desires of participating nations. They must, by definition, be compromised documents, since every nation has its own interests as the top priorities. The language used in such documents is always full of hedged statements and flexible rules. That's inevitable. There has never been a clean, clear international trade agreement. The language is intentionally vague and flexible.

Here in the US, analysts will interpret the TPP documents according to their own biases. They will read into every section and clause their own interpretations, without really considering how the language in them came to be during the negotiations. Pundits will focus on particular issues to expand their own egotistical viewpoints. Political figures will interpret them to suit their understanding of their constituencies. Economists will look at the language in their own unique ways. Amateurs will not understand much of it and will rely on the opinions of those people who reflect their own biases. Nobody except the actual negotiators will truly understand the documents and why they read as they do.

In the end, the TPP, like most multi-national trade agreements will eventually be approved and go into force, warts and all. In the end, it will influence trade and other issues to some degree, but each individual nation will use the hedges built into the language to its own benefit. The result will be improvements in some areas, despite problems in others. Finally, trade will continue, things like intellectual property rights will continue to be abused, and rules about human rights issues will be followed, but only to the extent that is convenient for each nation.

The TPP will be approved by Congress. It will go into effect. Everyone should know that. It will be followed to some degree, and ignored to some larger degree. If the overall effect is positive, it will do some good. But it will be approved, because such agreements are essential to have some sort of regulation for international trade.

The same thing applies to all other multi-national trade agreements under consideration. The final draft of these things has taken years to complete. They will be approved and trade will continue, more or less regulated by the agreements, except when that regulation is inconvenient for one or more of the nations that are party to the agreement. Then, the hedged language will allow considerable flexibility, despite disputes.

That's why the TPP isn't going to really be an issue in the 2016 elections. It will be approved and go into force, regardless of the outcome of the elections in the United States. It's a way bigger thing than one nation can dictate. It goes beyond the politics of any single nation.

I await the inevitable attacks on this point of view.

86 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Just one question: Of those 12 nations are they all equal in being able to protect themselves from jwirr Aug 2015 #1
Pretty much. But they're more equal in not being able to do that. MineralMan Aug 2015 #7
Many of us are voting this year to protect ourselves from further corporate power. I for one q jwirr Aug 2015 #10
No attack here. Thanks for the info! nt jonno99 Aug 2015 #2
It bothers me that its contents have been largely kept secret. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2015 #3
Until a final version has been negotiated and agreed to by MineralMan Aug 2015 #13
But by the time it's not secret any more there will be no opportunity The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2015 #19
Whether we like the secrecy or not is irrelevant. MineralMan Aug 2015 #26
So we should just shrug, and grin and bear it, if drugs go sky high for everyone, djean111 Aug 2015 #4
Oh, many will dispute and argue about parts of it. MineralMan Aug 2015 #15
Oh, I know! But, I am going to adopt Hillary's term for it - "The Gold Standard" and use the TPP as djean111 Aug 2015 #22
just because something is "inevitable" does not mean we have to accept it without a peep hollysmom Aug 2015 #37
No attacks from here, we just disagree.... daleanime Aug 2015 #5
It is a business agreement. You're right, its not intended to benefit the "people." MineralMan Aug 2015 #18
It is a trade agreement between nations. kenfrequed Aug 2015 #33
Ah, but that's the thing for me.... daleanime Aug 2015 #45
I think everything should be for the benefit of the people. MineralMan Aug 2015 #46
True that, too many insist on a larger slice of the pie for themselves.... daleanime Aug 2015 #49
No doubt you're right. MineralMan Aug 2015 #50
Yes, it is a business agreement: truebluegreen Aug 2015 #51
Your "preferred candidate" strongly disagrees whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #6
Yes, I know that. MineralMan Aug 2015 #25
I look forward to the next installment of whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #27
I'm glad to hear it. MineralMan Aug 2015 #28
Oh joy whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #31
Indeed! MineralMan Aug 2015 #34
so phony! nt Romulox Aug 2015 #44
I am a Minnesotan Sanders supporter kenfrequed Nov 2015 #86
As does Trump. The difference is that Bernie has endorsed pro-labor trade agreements while pampango Aug 2015 #83
It's a real dilemma for the GOP base...that's why they don't talk about it much except to say it's kelliekat44 Aug 2015 #8
I have wondered if many of the leaks have been used gain leeverage Agnosticsherbet Aug 2015 #9
Leaks are often engineered to guage... TreasonousBastard Aug 2015 #14
Probably. Negotiations are ongoing still. MineralMan Aug 2015 #20
So the corporatist powers do some horse trading, and we're supposed to think that's fair? appal_jack Aug 2015 #11
I'm not defending anything. I'm describing a process. MineralMan Aug 2015 #21
TPP is the "Pacific Oligarch Club" Cosmic Kitten Aug 2015 #12
You're absolutely correct. MineralMan Aug 2015 #23
Was it time for you to make a pro-corporate sales pitch? Check. Rex Aug 2015 #16
No, it's not DOA at all. MineralMan Aug 2015 #24
Well the news cycles say it is DOA, so you have to take it up with them. Rex Aug 2015 #32
He almost never backs his 'talks' to us with facts or links but Ichingcarpenter Aug 2015 #36
LOL! Rex Aug 2015 #41
The tone is "avuncular"... ljm2002 Aug 2015 #60
. Guy Whitey Corngood Aug 2015 #68
The greatest nailing in the history of nailage! whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #71
For some reason, I thought of this guy from the movie Outlaw Josey Wales neverforget Aug 2015 #82
The TPP won't be an issue next year partly because most... TreasonousBastard Aug 2015 #17
You could well be right. MineralMan Aug 2015 #29
I'd say they'll go for it. Trade deals... TreasonousBastard Aug 2015 #35
nobody's obligated to sign it, either HFRN Aug 2015 #30
The paragraph that should bother you zipplewrath Aug 2015 #38
You're right on all counts. I don't disagree. MineralMan Aug 2015 #39
If we can't affect the outcome, then your OP is pointless. Romulox Aug 2015 #40
No. You misunderstand what I want. MineralMan Aug 2015 #42
That's a distinction without a difference. You want to excuse corporate trade deals, and limit Romulox Aug 2015 #43
Well I'm so glad you're happy zipplewrath Aug 2015 #54
47 replies and I'm giving you the 5th Rec. smh Hekate Aug 2015 #47
Thanks! I'm surprised it got up to 5. MineralMan Aug 2015 #48
Could you point out the parts of TPP that are actually good for the US? jeff47 Aug 2015 #52
I can't, because, like everyone else, I haven't seen it yet. MineralMan Aug 2015 #53
You've seen some zipplewrath Aug 2015 #55
I've only seen some leaked very partial drafts, and not up-to-date. MineralMan Aug 2015 #56
And you haven't seen anything in those you do or don't like? zipplewrath Aug 2015 #57
What part of "I will not comment on partial drafts" MineralMan Aug 2015 #58
So le me ge this straight zipplewrath Aug 2015 #59
Did I say that? No, I did not. MineralMan Aug 2015 #63
Well.... zipplewrath Aug 2015 #78
LOL whathehell Aug 2015 #81
So, we should all shut up and not try to influence the deal. jeff47 Aug 2015 #64
You can do whatever you think best. MineralMan Aug 2015 #65
That would be a logical post if your OP was not telling us to shut up. (nt) jeff47 Aug 2015 #66
It's not telling you that at all. That's what you MineralMan Aug 2015 #67
Really? jeff47 Aug 2015 #69
Again, that's what you read into it. MineralMan Aug 2015 #72
So could you point out the parts that contradict these? jeff47 Aug 2015 #73
+1, pretty much sums it up. Marr Aug 2015 #77
And there is some mighty LWolf Aug 2015 #61
There are many with enormous economic clout doing just that. They MineralMan Aug 2015 #62
Your very first sentence explains the problem with it, Motown_Johnny Aug 2015 #70
It's another deal of, by and for.. sendero Aug 2015 #74
Thanks for the OP, Mineral Man fadedrose Aug 2015 #75
MineralMansplaining. /nt Marr Aug 2015 #76
I was about to type ... "Duck and Cover your head and precious parts because ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2015 #79
I pretty much agree, although I'm not positive it will pass. Good luck Hoyt Aug 2015 #80
Probably correct, but I will reframe JEB Aug 2015 #84
I hope you don’t consider every disagreement an “attack” Jim Lane Aug 2015 #85
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