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In reply to the discussion: Democratic Socialist [View all]
 

AOR

(692 posts)
80. This is an old comment from an acquaintance steven...
Mon Aug 17, 2015, 04:22 PM
Aug 2015

who has fought the battles for the leftist cause. It's not mine but I have permission to use. I agree wholeheartedly with this critique.

Why Such Bitter Antagonism Between Liberals and Leftists?

Why are there so many arguments, so much bitter antagonism, such paralysis and confusion on much ballyhooed “Progressive-Liberal-Left”?

Because people fight for their positions as though their personal identity depended upon them, as though their existence depended upon their political position or theory. That is because their personal identity does depend upon their political positions. They are one and the same - "be the change you want to see." People actually mean "seek the change that suits who you are as an actualized individual" since it never involves self-sacrifice or focus on the needs of others, but always on individual personal choices and self-expression. In fact, their political positions are not political positions at all, but narcissistic expressions of their personalities.

Now I recognize that many people here define themselves as "liberals/progressives" and therefore, may reject whatever came before... but it is still important to know what that was.

It is also true that "liberals" and "leftists" may find themselves allied on many issues or tactics and may well need each other under those circumstances.

Finally, it is true that "liberal" or "leftist" may refer to "political labels", applied by "the right", by others, or even by oneself, and have no particular relevance to the actual issues which divide "liberals" and "leftists".

Nonetheless... historically, liberals and leftists are not merely different points in a common spectrum but, in the end, they are implacable enemies. And the issue is precisely joined on the issue of class, as has been mentioned before but now seems to have disappeared from the general lexicon.

If the term "left" has any meaning other than a purely relative one, it is as that group of political ideas, parties, movements, and organizations which believes that politics is driven less by ideas than by interests and that those interests are based on economic class. Radical republicans (Civil War variety), revolutionary democrats, social democrats (including even a sizable chunk of the British Labor Party and the German SDs of today), socialists, Utopian socialists, agrarian socialists, communists, anarchists, anarco-syndicalists, and nihilists - if these do not agree on anything else, they agree on the centrality of social classes even before they divide on what to do about them.

In contrast, "Liberals" explicitly reject the centrality of social classes. If such exist at all, they are assumed to be trumped by a common interest (national or otherwise) and any division is based only on transitory political opinion or policy. They are united with "Conservatives" in their agreement on the fundamental norms of society and on their long-term objectives (most importantly in the defense of private property and the projection of "national interest&quot . Indeed, for them, the current organization of society is the only one conceivable.

To the Liberals, the Left is a competitor for the same political constituency they claim to represent. The Left fosters "national division" and "class hatred" where moderation and "cooler heads" might otherwise prevail. They are often hand-cuffed by the "extreme demands" and "lack of reform mindedness" of the Left. If things come to a head, they can even justify arresting the Left... in the interest of "the greater good", of course (see Palmer, McCarthy, many more...).

The Left returns this attitude with interest... They regard the Liberals as the reform party of the ruling class. From this standpoint, the Liberals most assuredly need the Left. We are the monsters-beneath-the-bed that they invariably point to as a reason for the Conservatives to negotiate "reform"... "If you don't deal with us you may have to tackle the great unwashed". That is what "playing the class card" or "race card" means.

What exactly do we need the Liberals for? If there turns out to have been a misunderstanding of biblical prophesy and all Liberals are suddenly captured by the Rapture and disappear from the face of the earth how much worse off would we be? Would Rove suddenly be "turned loose" ‘cause Joe Biden was no longer there to protect us?

A little political poem:

Liberals ask:

"Why can't we just get along?"

Leftists ask:

"Which side are you on?"

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Democratic Socialist [View all] Quixote1818 Aug 2015 OP
Hell yeah ... Trajan Aug 2015 #1
I can't take credit for writing this Quixote1818 Aug 2015 #3
! tecelote Aug 2015 #18
Might this mean passing laws to channel behavior into socially productive areas? guillaumeb Aug 2015 #2
After Listening To Call-In's On CSPAN Today I Think You Are Going To Have To..... global1 Aug 2015 #4
Bernie wants to raise taxes on the rich and lower them on the rest of us. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #8
Obama tried to do that too, couldn't get it past the republican congress.... George II Aug 2015 #19
Sanders says outright that no president can do it alone. He is trying to create a movement of JDPriestly Aug 2015 #23
118 members of Congress have endorsed Clinton, zero have endorsed Sanders: George II Aug 2015 #24
I'd say he is not corrupt like so many of our members of Congress. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #25
Regardless, how is going to be able to work with Congress if many of them don't like his politics? George II Aug 2015 #26
Actually he is liked by a lot of people in Congress. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #30
It's not cheaper to just give up on millions of young adults? Babel_17 Aug 2015 #51
I assume that trade schools would be treated the same as colleges. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #54
You were clear enough, I just think it's beneficial if we emphasize it more Babel_17 Aug 2015 #55
I totally agree with you. I lived in several European countries for years, and in each, the JDPriestly Aug 2015 #57
I was thinking along the same lines Babel_17 Aug 2015 #59
So IF (a huge if) he gets elected, you really expect him to be an effective President.... George II Aug 2015 #65
I expect him to have the people behind him. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #70
are you being deliberately obtuse? passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #64
Is this "grass roots uprising" going to descend on Washington, sit in at the Capitol.... George II Aug 2015 #66
Just look at BLM. It's already making a difference in how this campaign season is starting off passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #68
I agree Baadger Aug 2015 #10
Unfortunately to them there's no such thing as fair taxes lunatica Aug 2015 #83
I believe Bernie asked why we can't be more like Scandinavia. pampango Aug 2015 #5
They don't. former9thward Aug 2015 #15
He said that? Someone should give Sanders a geography lesson - Scandinavia isn't a country.... George II Aug 2015 #69
Don't you see the contradiction here? rogerashton Aug 2015 #6
YA know, like Franklin Delano Roosevelt! Dont call me Shirley Aug 2015 #7
Thanks for posting this succinct definition! Cassidy Aug 2015 #9
Socialism is where the means of production is controlled democratically passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #11
A lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too; ronnie624 Aug 2015 #56
Very nice. nt valerief Aug 2015 #12
Capitalism can't be "made fair"... AOR Aug 2015 #13
Agreed. nt. JanMichael Aug 2015 #16
Sure it can... CanSocDem Aug 2015 #20
You are missing the point... AOR Aug 2015 #27
Perhaps... CanSocDem Aug 2015 #28
You've not addressed what I've written... AOR Aug 2015 #32
People are people, and so all systems need checks and balances and individual motivation... Armstead Aug 2015 #29
What "you believe" or "call yourself" is entirely irrelevant... AOR Aug 2015 #31
Yeah, yeah,yeah...good luck with that. Armstead Aug 2015 #34
You've said absolutely nothing in your reply... AOR Aug 2015 #35
If I will be able to afford a BMW 750i xDrive Sedan and a McMansion under socialism, FrodosPet Aug 2015 #58
Not until the human needs of every single citizen in society are met in full... AOR Aug 2015 #61
You and I are exactly on the same page. Quixote1818 Aug 2015 #37
Forget about purity. moondust Aug 2015 #42
"Purity" has nothing to do with it... AOR Aug 2015 #45
How does this case fit into your "understanding" of things? moondust Aug 2015 #47
How does it fit in ? AOR Aug 2015 #60
What about the employee owned co-ops in Germany? passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #67
Robert Reich is a liberal capitalist passiveporcupine... AOR Aug 2015 #71
I think you are wrong about Richard Wolff passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #72
Everything should be up for analysis passiveporcupine... AOR Aug 2015 #73
Sanders isn't the lesser of two evils. Hillary is. passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #74
I'd say trying to change capitalism into socialism... AOR Aug 2015 #77
Have a read on this passiveporcupine on the wage system... AOR Aug 2015 #75
You seem to be stuck in a groove passiveporcupine Aug 2015 #76
Leftist politics is about capitalism... AOR Aug 2015 #78
Left politics consist of a broad spectrum of beliefs both economically and socially. stevenleser Aug 2015 #79
This is an old comment from an acquaintance steven... AOR Aug 2015 #80
Of course it's very convenient to define one's own viewpoint as the only true one of a particular stevenleser Aug 2015 #82
Steven...it has nothing to do with labels... AOR Aug 2015 #84
+1 leftstreet Aug 2015 #81
CAPITALISM AND DEMOCRACY ARE COMPLETELY INCOMPATIBLE!!! ellennelle Aug 2015 #14
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Aug 2015 #17
Forward to DWS lobodons Aug 2015 #21
we are all democratic socialists. DUrs, Freepers, GOPrs, the Pauls, BLMrs, wiggs Aug 2015 #22
No, we are Social Democrats. See the below thread. nt stevenleser Aug 2015 #44
Most links on the web say the opposite re: Democratic Socialism and Capitalism including... stevenleser Aug 2015 #33
I am not an expert on any of this but I do know that Bernie points to countries like Norway Quixote1818 Aug 2015 #36
Those countries & the policies they enact are examples of Social Democracy, not Democratic Socialism stevenleser Aug 2015 #38
Thanks for the clarification Steve. nt Quixote1818 Aug 2015 #39
Austerity comes to Norway – workers fight back... AOR Aug 2015 #40
Private corporations are neither prohibited nor desired in a democratic socialist setup. RichVRichV Aug 2015 #41
A system where workers own corporations, not investment shareholders, is a form of Socialism. stevenleser Aug 2015 #43
Hence why it is called democratic socialism. RichVRichV Aug 2015 #46
Ah, so we agree. I wasn't sure. stevenleser Aug 2015 #48
something tells me no one is selling that anytime soon in America ericson00 Aug 2015 #50
I agree it's a non starter in the U.S. But it is how he self identified. Nt stevenleser Aug 2015 #62
This message was self-deleted by its author ericson00 Aug 2015 #49
The Nordic Model Babel_17 Aug 2015 #52
Hogwash. Since Marx, 'Democratic Socialists' have sought the KingCharlemagne Aug 2015 #53
We agree on the first paragraph. I actually think Sanders is a Democratic Socialist stevenleser Aug 2015 #63
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