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HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
52. I agree with you on Holmes, the Aurora shooter. The action of the therapist seems irresponsible
Tue Sep 8, 2015, 05:28 PM
Sep 2015

relative to the risk to the public. She KNEW he was ideating about harming people, although late in the game she passed that knowlege on to her employer the university. It is not correct to say that no one thought he was disturbed in that way. The university security also knew, but rather than pass information about a risk to the public the saw -their- problem as being resolved when Holmes left campus.

I think laws could be written and professional codes of conduct could be modified to punish such acts of licensed caregivers as a step to reducing that behavior.

Mass murder such as committed by Holmes, apparently randomly chosen targets not associated with workplace or family thankfully remain relatively rare. Unfortunately, the infrequency makes profiling likely perpetrators difficult so identifying and intervention by law enforcement is very sketchy, constructed policies for prevention are consequently sketchy and they are very likely to include significant biase that enables making errors on the side of caution.

So, I think it's important to be careful of strawman arguments carefully constructed to raitonalize validation of of civil rights violations and improper use of public authority. Along that path it's understandably easy to see how bad social policy can be loosed upon society... I suppose you remember how Cheney did this relative to torture by asking how acceptable torture would be if you thought someone knew where an activated atomic bomb was hidden in your city? Condi did a similar thing when she said we don't want our first evidence that something is wrong to be in the form of a mushroom cloud.

As it is, police often seem to poorly handle interactions with the mentally disordered. Based on just what we know through the news, there are a dozen or so incidents per year where police kill people when responding to calls for assistance or making their own contact with a person manifesting symptoms of mental illness. We don't know the actual numbers because there is no national database into which all police killings of civilians must be reported and so we don't know how much retraining and reconsideration of existing response authority needs to be done.

Public policy to prevent firearms violence must be constructed around unconditioned risk (as in the risk of someone dying in a plane crash which hypothetically might be depend upon frequency of flying associated with a particular type of job, or living near an airport), and authority for certain acts to contain or deal with the violence and it's aftermath -must- be constructed upon the conditioned risk (the risk of dying when you actually are in a plane when it is crashing).

If prevention is the public's goal, it must be based on unconditioned risk and policies must be commensurate with likelihood of risks. When scenarios are constructed that use language that prejudices the outcome, and 'unstable people' is just such a thing when considering mental disorders and firearm violence it makes assignment of a likelihood impossible. It presupposes the presence of an act isn't a likelihood but is actually very very likely to take place or appeals to few events, perhaps one, that has taken place.

You can't temper any argument with risk assessment when the risk is 100%. So no one should address an argument about what do you do to prevent events described by strawman arguments that depend upon fear rather than the proper risks of occurrence.

"Unstable" is a popular but basically undefined term and thereby useless as rhetorical tool in discussions about controlling mental illness to reduce gun violence.

Well, I've seen it used here all the time--and it survives jury alerts. Routinely. MADem Sep 2015 #1
I would say, at this point in time, DU's administration should be held responsible. HuckleB Sep 2015 #2
We are "self-policing." The people who should be held accountable are the jurors who don't vote to MADem Sep 2015 #3
I can only laugh at the "self-policing." It's just Lord of the Flies. HuckleB Sep 2015 #4
Just do the right thing on the jury. That's all you can do. MADem Sep 2015 #5
I do, but the reality is that many do not. HuckleB Sep 2015 #6
They have a lot of irons in the fire, I think. I don't know if DU is their priority anymore. MADem Sep 2015 #7
Edit because I was wrong kcr Sep 2015 #15
You are mistaken. IGNORE only makes people invisible to YOU, MADem Sep 2015 #16
That's how ignore used to work. Not anymore. kcr Sep 2015 #17
I'm sorry, but you are. When someone ignores you, YOU can STILL see them. MADem Sep 2015 #19
If you can come up with another theory as to why this person shows for me when I'm not logged in kcr Sep 2015 #20
Because YOU have THEM on IGNORE--not the other way around. MADem Sep 2015 #21
Nope. I even checked again. And I've cleared out my list entirely. kcr Sep 2015 #22
I am sorry, but that's just not the way ignore works. MADem Sep 2015 #23
That would out the person kcr Sep 2015 #24
My home page doesn't look the same when I log out, either. MADem Sep 2015 #26
I'm not ignoring anyone either. That's the point. It's other people ignoring that ostracizes. kcr Sep 2015 #27
And it isn't the home page. I'm sorry I wan't clear. kcr Sep 2015 #29
ANd I can think of no other reason this is happening kcr Sep 2015 #25
Check your TRASH THIS FORUM list. MADem Sep 2015 #28
I'm not going to ATA. It's a waste of time. They rarely answer anyone anymore. kcr Sep 2015 #30
I don't know what to tell you, but I know that DU doesn't work that way. It would be a feature MADem Sep 2015 #32
Okay, I promise you I'm not ignoring anyone. kcr Sep 2015 #33
And thank you for your help. kcr Sep 2015 #35
Maybe we can petition the admins to make it work the other way...! MADem Sep 2015 #38
OMG. I'm an idiot kcr Sep 2015 #34
I KNEW there had to be an explanation. You're not an idiot. Don't put yourself down. MADem Sep 2015 #37
I'm going to blame the cold medicine. kcr Sep 2015 #39
Good idea! MADem Sep 2015 #40
It's GD, this very forum n/t kcr Sep 2015 #31
we all good now? snooper2 Sep 2015 #41
Peace has been restored kcr Sep 2015 #42
In answer to a PM to the admin about it I was told DU couldn't function with such a rule HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #11
I'm sorry for hijacking your thread kcr Sep 2015 #36
It's HuckleB's, and it'll get back on track, despite our little subthread conversation! MADem Sep 2015 #43
Darn it. I meant to respond to the OP kcr Sep 2015 #44
The true tragedy of mental health stigma is that it dissuades many from seeking help Midnight Writer Sep 2015 #8
Agreed. Mental health issues should not be stigmatized, pnwmom Sep 2015 #9
Wow. But DU celebrates each time certain clerics claim LGBT persons are 'inherently disordered'.... Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #12
I wish I had a nickle for everytime Stephanie Miller or a Mooch used stigma HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #14
I thought this Pope said "Who am I to judge?" MADem Sep 2015 #18
What do you think about proposals for gun law restrictions that JDPriestly Sep 2015 #10
It's impossible to answer that question as it's asked HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #13
Wow, great response. - nt dreamnightwind Sep 2015 #45
Great post! I wish you would post it or a version of it you think appropriate as an OP. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #46
The assault weapons ban that was allowed to expire pnwmom Sep 2015 #48
I think the problem is a cultural one. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #51
All that may be true -- but it means when there is a mentally ill person pnwmom Sep 2015 #47
No, I don't think I'm even implying doing away with any regulation or law HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #49
Of course, someone who is committed won't have access to guns. pnwmom Sep 2015 #50
I agree with you on Holmes, the Aurora shooter. The action of the therapist seems irresponsible HereSince1628 Sep 2015 #52
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