General Discussion

maxsolomon

(38,749 posts)

69. Gun Owners and "Controllers" can't even agree on basic facts

Tue Oct 6, 2015, 08:25 PM

Oct 2015

Like: how many times do people ACTUALLY use a gun for self-defense? 2.5 million times a year? 100K times a year? under 10K? We can thank the GOP and "Gun Rights Activists" for that ambiguity, as CDC research was banned by Congress.

Frankly, I feel pretty fucking alienated by the constant nitpicking of every proposal to alleviate this slaughter, no matter how inconsequential. Not to mention the constant "gun free zone" snark, or jumping on the auto/semi-auto confusion by neophytes, or dismissing sincere, conscientious advocacy as biased lies.

One small example of gun owner smugness: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7233980

It's people in YOUR group (gun owners) that are doing the shooting, maiming, and killing. Not us. Yet gun owners are the ones getting their feewings hurt by despairing proposals to regulate the militia. Which we're already doing anyway (i.e. limiting access to full auto, thank Christ), so the precedent for infringing on the right is established. No Constitutional right is without limits, even free speech.

I'm not ready to sing Kumbaya with you, Dem or not. I am ready to consider facts that are contrary to my opinion, but I'm done tolerating Sophistry.

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Please do not alienate Democratic gun owners [View all] Kang Colby Oct 2015 OP

Please do not tell me to like guns. nt valerief Oct 2015 #1

You don't have to. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #7

*Now* your side is calling for civility? villager Oct 2015 #8

Democratic gun owners seldom use Kang Colby Oct 2015 #10

Some "posters" Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #47

I would like to see the Democratic gun owners come up with some solutions NV Whino Oct 2015 #2

Ditto gratuitous Oct 2015 #4

Me too. I'm tired of all homicides and other acts of violent crime in this country. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #12

Since the vast majority of gun violence forthemiddle Oct 2015 #19

I agree. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #23

Excellent addition n/t forthemiddle Oct 2015 #81

And it's a good one. NV Whino Oct 2015 #28

I too would like to see them "innovate" rather than "piss on." villager Oct 2015 #26

Would you be willing to compromise? Kang Colby Oct 2015 #35

Not much of a compromise, eh? villager Oct 2015 #36

Both sides are going to need to give up some if it's going to be a compromise. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #37

No, this particular thing doesn't "work" on the hill. villager Oct 2015 #38

You are free to counter my proposal just.. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #40

I honestly don't think your "side" is. There are a few individual exceptions, and that's it villager Oct 2015 #226

Ahh, "reasonable first steps..." THAT is a turn-off, Villager. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 12th...? Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #224

+1000 n/t. whathehell Oct 2015 #33

See post 35. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #41

I thought there were some good ideas -- and good discussions -- in this thread: Brickbat Oct 2015 #46

We have hundreds of Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #48

Sure. I'm a democratic gun owner hollowdweller Oct 2015 #87

The medical situation gets sticky, but I'm sure you're aware of that NV Whino Oct 2015 #108

Let me respond, GGJohn Oct 2015 #124

In other words, no, no, no, no, no! longship Oct 2015 #139

Ummm, wrong. GGJohn Oct 2015 #144

I just take the gun supporters at their own words. longship Oct 2015 #170

Why a ban on semi auto rifles? GGJohn Oct 2015 #174

I think we have a reasonable dialog going. longship Oct 2015 #186

Great dialog. GGJohn Oct 2015 #187

Automatic firearms are almost never used in crime. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #188

Please, let us not get into semantic arguments. longship Oct 2015 #191

My point was that automatic firearms are not used in crime. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #192

Automatic weapons are not used in crime???? longship Oct 2015 #195

I'm not arguing about the purpose of an automatic weapon TeddyR Oct 2015 #202

Do you know the diff between Automatic and Semi-Automatic? BATF does. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #227

Of course I do. longship Oct 2015 #232

Josh Sugarmann of Violence Policy Center did. Intentionally. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #234

Why do you think automatic weapons have been used in mass shootings? Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #250

I did not say they were. longship Oct 2015 #252

What about this response? Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #254

I will take that into consideration. longship Oct 2015 #256

Of course I don't disagree. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #257

Then, that is okay with me. longship Oct 2015 #258

I am in favor of universal background checks and would hope that can pass Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #272

You said 'compromise'. beevul Oct 2015 #149

Anything except nothing. longship Oct 2015 #160

I see a lot of noes in there NV Whino Oct 2015 #162

2 no's 5 yes and 1 maybe, GGJohn Oct 2015 #166

Why are you so fucking paranoid? I have no issue with registration.... Logical Oct 2015 #184

I'm not paranoid, I have no fears of the govt confiscating firearms, GGJohn Oct 2015 #189

'Fucking paranoid' and 'you are nuts.' Damn, try some Logical approaches. Sheesh. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #228

How about putting a 500 dollar sales tax on any gun with the ability to hold over 10 rounds?? GGJohn Oct 2015 #125

I'm sure mental health practitioners can't wait to be put in between hopping mad gun nuts and Erose999 Oct 2015 #298

Many of us have offered some suggestions that would help to reduce the incidents GGJohn Oct 2015 #112

One solution I'd like to see that doesn't get suggested much jeff47 Oct 2015 #135

That law is already on the books as part of GCA '68. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #140

Ummm, that's already Federal law. GGJohn Oct 2015 #141

Many have been posted in the Gungeon, time & again. For years. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #225

Political party has nothing to do with it! upaloopa Oct 2015 #3

No, this is a make or break issue for a lot of historically Dem voters. Yo_Mama Oct 2015 #27

+1...n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #42

My state of Minnesota is mostly a blue state. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #51

I have tons of friends who used to be democrats hollowdweller Oct 2015 #90

Don't know your 2A views, but I agree. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #230

I'm not personally in the gun camp, unless you categorize anyone Yo_Mama Oct 2015 #237

I and my Florida Cracker family (before the C.War) always knew to approach Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #251

If you are a responsible gun owner countingbluecars Oct 2015 #5

So insults are ok Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #49

How is that an insult? countingbluecars Oct 2015 #59

That is not but Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #89

Please do not trot out bullshit arguments. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #6

My argument was much, much more nuanced. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #9

no it wasn't Skittles Oct 2015 #13

That's your opinion. I respect it. n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #15

... Skittles Oct 2015 #18

Pals. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #20

I don't know, I've damaged my body much more with my Mt. Bike than ileus Oct 2015 #74

Statistically speaking.. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #99

Hey, that's good. You sure you ain't the smartest guy in the world? Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #206

Let's see. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #196

Why have it strapped, why not just use a common sling??? ileus Oct 2015 #197

You're a smooth smoothie, ya know? Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #198

Not in my neck-o-de-woods. ileus Oct 2015 #287

Apparently, you live in Somalia. nt Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #289

Naw those folks carry AK's. ileus Oct 2015 #290

They look like such fun, but I know I'd kill myself. Yo_Mama Oct 2015 #238

Similar situation here. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #296

Lotta long tombstoned gungeoneers in that thread from three years before you existed. onehandle Oct 2015 #11

Who knows? Kang Colby Oct 2015 #14

"Guns for self defense" Sparkly Oct 2015 #16

Ok.. trumad Oct 2015 #17

Sure. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #21

It will be the same argument... trumad Oct 2015 #24

At least that's a start towards civility. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #45

Oh I see.. trumad Oct 2015 #79

I'm a Democratic gun owner, and I'm neither alienated, nor second-class. Paladin Oct 2015 #22

I'm a proud gun rights activist. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #25

Glad to hear it. (nt) Paladin Oct 2015 #75

You are wasting your time. The cultural wars entertain them too much. Nt hack89 Oct 2015 #29

Im not alienated in the least bit, maybe SOME gun owners don't freak out and get Rex Oct 2015 #30

The only time I get reactionary is when Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #44

I would I guess if guns were a big issue for me, but they are not. Rex Oct 2015 #50

I'm not certain what hunting has to do with anything. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #55

Hunters use guns, the topic has been all over DU these past few days. Rex Oct 2015 #61

The 2A does not mention hunting. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #66

Why would it need to? Rex Oct 2015 #80

It doesn't need to. That's the point. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #92

Because of cause and effect. Rex Oct 2015 #93

You're right, bowhunting is far more challenging. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #107

So if the 2A was taken away, hunters would just sit in their deer blinds and Rex Oct 2015 #110

I was thinking the same about you. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #113

I knew you did not know anything about this subject. Rex Oct 2015 #115

Now you have me intrigued. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #118

You seem to not know any actual hunters if you did you would know what I am talking about Rex Oct 2015 #120

This message was self-deleted by its author Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #133

Is Jim Zumbo a real hunter? N/T beevul Oct 2015 #283

This message was self-deleted by its author Kang Colby Oct 2015 #167

Hunt with an Assault Rifle? GGJohn Oct 2015 #128

Um that was my point...why is it so hard for a certain few to get that? Rex Oct 2015 #132

AR 15s & AR 10s, are commonly used in hog hunts in TX and other places, but not... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #233

That's a perfectly reasonable response to shit like this: Nevernose Oct 2015 #117

I cannot believe you called those people shit Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #119

Seriously? Nevernose Oct 2015 #121

My reference was to the idea that banning guns Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #126

Moral blackmail.. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #130

And a lack of easy access to handguns/assault rifles Nevernose Oct 2015 #134

His mother owned those guns. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #163

There is no easy access to assault rifles, GGJohn Oct 2015 #168

How on earth do you think it can be managed to make all parents responsible? kcr Oct 2015 #210

We do regulate firearms. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #253

I've stated that I don't think they're regulated enough. kcr Oct 2015 #261

Good, at least we are building some common ground. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #264

In case you haven't noticed, you can call pro-2A posters in DU most anything you want... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #235

Question Kang Colby Oct 2015 #270

This message was self-deleted by its author Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #285

The wording seemed to reference the kids as "shit.". That was mu immediate take... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #288

Oh I hear ya, I agree. n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #293

I don't understand that kcr Oct 2015 #213

Exactly how are you going to ban guns? Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #215

I don't know. I'm not going to ban guns. Didn't you read my post? n/t kcr Oct 2015 #216

In your post you asked me what would be so Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #217

Yes. And? kcr Oct 2015 #218

Speculation about banning guns, Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #219

But I'm not speculating, either. I've stated outright that I don't propose banning guns. kcr Oct 2015 #221

When someone writes about banning guns (and you did), Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #222

I wrote about it in that I was questioning why you didn't understand kcr Oct 2015 #223

This is getting tiresome. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #249

Oh well. It's not my problem if you're reading things that aren't there. kcr Oct 2015 #259

I understand why someone would want to ban guns. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #273

It would depend on the type and how far reaching kcr Oct 2015 #274

Other countries have managed to take 300 million guns from citizens? Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #277

I am not afraid of guns. Democrats are gun owners NYCButterfinger Oct 2015 #255

How is it that other laws manage to work? kcr Oct 2015 #260

Not that junk again. It's not nearly as convincing as "I need a bunch of gunz to strap on Hoyt Oct 2015 #31

Why do you almost always mention Chuck E Cheese in your anti gun posts? GGJohn Oct 2015 #131

Because I'm responding to gun fanciers who think like you. Hoyt Oct 2015 #142

Still can't get a coherent answer from you. GGJohn Oct 2015 #146

I can't get a coherent thought from you when it comes to gunz. Hoyt Oct 2015 #150

I had to try, GGJohn Oct 2015 #152

What's missing from this rant? procon Oct 2015 #32

20,000 gun laws? NRA talking point, there are fewer than 4,000 actuql gun laws. flamin lib Oct 2015 #34

Hey Flamin' Kang Colby Oct 2015 #39

All included is less than 4,000. nt flamin lib Oct 2015 #52

I believe you. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #58

I intend to post my opinions freely here. Crunchy Frog Oct 2015 #43

No one is voting for Trump. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #53

Not in the mood to be "respectful" immediately following a massacre. Crunchy Frog Oct 2015 #62

Yeah, because contentious discussions have surely been effective on this issue. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #70

Did I ever even remotely suggest Crunchy Frog Oct 2015 #109

I believe that civil discourse can change attitudes and have a profound effect regardless of the Kang Colby Oct 2015 #122

If their precious guns are more important to them than being Democrats mwrguy Oct 2015 #54

Roughly a third of the Democratic party supports gun rights. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #73

I think it's more than that. 33%+ Democrats actually OWN guns (per Gallup). Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #236

Ever read the party platform? whatthehey Oct 2015 #200

You are not going to win elections without their support. We can have a small, pure Yo_Mama Oct 2015 #241

Too late. The nation has shifted decisively for gun rights. Even African-Americans LittleBlue Oct 2015 #56

So we have to stop advocating for gun control because some gun owners are going hrmjustin Oct 2015 #57

That's not the point. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #60

It is how people use guns to murder other people that is the issue. hrmjustin Oct 2015 #65

I agree, people tend to be the overall problem. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #136

Yes. That is it really. Rex Oct 2015 #63

Never understood why people like guns. hrmjustin Oct 2015 #67

I hate it when someone shows up and pretends to represent me. Rex Oct 2015 #138

Oh fer fuck sake. This is NOT about Democratic gun owners it is about madinmaryland Oct 2015 #64

I'm sure with a statement like that... Kang Colby Oct 2015 #68

My friend. We have been playing kum by yah for the last 40 years to the GIC... madinmaryland Oct 2015 #76

I respectfully disagree. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #85

Pardon me for asking, but were you a member of DU under a different screen name? madinmaryland Oct 2015 #102

Nope. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #145

So what's your proposal? TeddyR Oct 2015 #91

LOL, you're something else Glitterati Oct 2015 #78

oh and we have to be NICE Skittles Oct 2015 #84

LOL, I know Glitterati Oct 2015 #86

What's wrong with being kind and considerate? Kang Colby Oct 2015 #97

NO THANKS Skittles Oct 2015 #106

"you CANNOT debate people who REFUSE TO ADMIT THERE IS A PROBLEM" beevul Oct 2015 #284

So all the gun owners in the US TeddyR Oct 2015 #95

Results... Major Nikon Oct 2015 #111

As I said in this thread, you can say pretty much ANYTHING you want re pro-2A DUers... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #239

LOL, you're something else GGJohn Oct 2015 #137

OMG Skittles Oct 2015 #83

Gun Owners and "Controllers" can't even agree on basic facts maxsolomon Oct 2015 #69

I value your opinion, maxsolomon. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #77

if you disagree with everything i wrote, then what "value" do you place on it? maxsolomon Oct 2015 #214

Maybe because you aren't the only one in DU. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #243

I see gun owners not ceding an inch on any aspect of this issue maxsolomon Oct 2015 #291

Your "despair" and being "at wits end" may be of less importance than... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #292

Our "societal problem" is that we have too many semi-automatic pistols in circulation maxsolomon Oct 2015 #295

The Naval Yard shooter used a shotgun. Pump-action. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #306

I don't need a lesson in semi-auto versus pump action. maxsolomon Oct 2015 #308

"Niggling concerns" and "lessons" are what got us the comical "assault weapons ban." Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #309

It was just my opinion. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #300

I've got people in my own family who use guns in entirely utilitarian ways. hunter Oct 2015 #71

Or else what? Y'all gonna switch teams?? nt ChisolmTrailDem Oct 2015 #72

God I hope he does. trumad Oct 2015 #82

I hope that you were able to learn something. N/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #96

No, I won't TeddyR Oct 2015 #98

Unless you are Hillary, in which case - please proceed! peacebird Oct 2015 #88

Here's the problem hollowdweller Oct 2015 #94

People on the left feel lancer78 Oct 2015 #129

I own a gun Texasgal Oct 2015 #100

Meh. Hissyspit Oct 2015 #101

Bernie is the bridge . orpupilofnature57 Oct 2015 #103

These fucking gunners get everything they want, always alcibiades_mystery Oct 2015 #104

Please stop pretending to represent a group of people on DU that you do not. Rex Oct 2015 #105

I'm not representing anyone Rex... Kang Colby Oct 2015 #151

Then change your title please, because that is what you are implying. Rex Oct 2015 #153

That title is simply advice. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #154

Yes and I am too and you do not speak for me. Rex Oct 2015 #156

Sure thing. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #164

I figured you didn't have any good intentions with your thread. Rex Oct 2015 #165

Oh, come on. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #169

Not my problem if you try to pretend to be polite and show you are not sincere at all. Rex Oct 2015 #171

My apologies, Rex. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #176

NP, same here I apologize for getting gruff. Rex Oct 2015 #181

Hey, no problem. 100% my fault. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #185

Ummm, you said you wanted civility, GGJohn Oct 2015 #172

Hunters are considered bad people tied to the NRA and the GOP. Rex Oct 2015 #173

Hunt with an M-249? GGJohn Oct 2015 #178

I think I can clear some of this up with post #177. Rex Oct 2015 #180

Agreed. GGJohn Oct 2015 #182

Yes we can. Rex Oct 2015 #183

Thanks for the feedback....GGJohn Kang Colby Oct 2015 #175

No problem. eom. GGJohn Oct 2015 #179

Shout it to the rooftops! Lint Head Oct 2015 #114

+1 davidpdx Oct 2015 #193

Every "gun enthusiast" that I know in real life, is a rabid republican. MH1 Oct 2015 #116

Ughh, that thread you linked makes me want to vomit Bradical79 Oct 2015 #123

Your concern is noted. PowerToThePeople Oct 2015 #127

I will say the same about Demcratic catholics LukeFL Oct 2015 #143

Thanks for sharing. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #147

The f the Pope stuff was hard to take. rbrnmw Oct 2015 #207

You act like exercising your first amendment rights is alienating someone who believes in it MrMickeysMom Oct 2015 #148

Go to a gun show. Tell me those people are even 20% liberal. They are right wing nuts. nt Logical Oct 2015 #155

Shhhh....we are not supposed to discuss any part of reality here. Rex Oct 2015 #157

I won guns and shoot at a range at time. But the people there are scary. Love guns too much. nt Logical Oct 2015 #158

Point being their unhealthy love for guns. Rex Oct 2015 #159

+1000 nt Logical Oct 2015 #161

Since so many do not know what a hunter is and a gun nut is, let me show you the difference. Rex Oct 2015 #177

No one is trying to alienate responsible gun owners. Responsible gun owners may be a collector or akbacchus_BC Oct 2015 #190

I agree that loopholes need to be closed TeddyR Oct 2015 #204

I lulz'd KG Oct 2015 #194

I won't as long as you consider treestar Oct 2015 #199

My dad had a gun in the closet and he never knew how often I thought about using it to blow my CBGLuthier Oct 2015 #201

I see TeddyR Oct 2015 #205

"Fuck Democratic gun owners?" branford Oct 2015 #231

Thank you for the tone argument. Iggo Oct 2015 #203

Exactly. I think we have all learned something. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #211

Why? will they shoot me? La Lioness Priyanka Oct 2015 #208

Not going to adopt a conservative viewpoint. Sorry. kcr Oct 2015 #209

Gun owners should stop alienating those who want to live in a free and peaceful society frizzled Oct 2015 #212

The party apparatus currently is trying to use the gun issue against Sanders mmonk Oct 2015 #220

If you are one of the gun nuts rockfordfile Oct 2015 #229

So first TeddyR Oct 2015 #244

Post removed Post removed Oct 2015 #248

You own a gun. Many people here think you're not a democrat Taitertots Oct 2015 #245

That's not true rockfordfile Oct 2015 #247

They're just things. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2015 #240

Prohibitionist don't care if it causes conservatives to take power AGAIN. Taitertots Oct 2015 #242

Tough talk & changing reality is EZ on the innertubes... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #246

Any damn idiot, racist hater, paranoid schizophrenic, right wing nazi, KKK cross burner workinclasszero Oct 2015 #262

That's not constructive discussion in my opinion. Eom. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #263

Oh I'm sure workinclasszero Oct 2015 #266

Really? That kind of moral blackmail Kang Colby Oct 2015 #269

I haven't seen anyone on DU TeddyR Oct 2015 #280

"Any damn idiot, racist hater, paranoid schizophrenic, right wing nazi, KKK cross burner..." Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #265

Really? So go to Oregon right now. workinclasszero Oct 2015 #267

I see we've never talked before... Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #268

So what's your proposed solution? TeddyR Oct 2015 #278

Incrementalism Kang Colby Oct 2015 #271

This is how your side sounds crazy kcr Oct 2015 #275

Not in my state and several others. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #279

How are they not alienated or even offended by mass murders? Agnosticsherbet Oct 2015 #276

You do not represent this gun owner. U4ikLefty Oct 2015 #281

That's cool. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #282

They can't alienate me, I was a democrat before most of the 2A haters were born. ileus Oct 2015 #286

But surely they try... Kang Colby Oct 2015 #294

Your concern is noted there, guy. Erose999 Oct 2015 #297

does closing loopholes like gun show sales without backgrnd checks alienate you? wordpix Oct 2015 #299

BINGO! B Calm Oct 2015 #302

Most all gun owners I know (myself included)... Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #307

Makes sense to me, but I'm afraid the ship has already sailed. NaturalHigh Oct 2015 #301

While I agree with you. I don't discuss this topic with the anti-gun crowd anymore. GOLGO 13 Oct 2015 #303

Understood and I usually do the same. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #305

If someone thinks gun rights are more important than everything else Dems strand for, then... LonePirate Oct 2015 #304