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Marr

(20,317 posts)

62. No, because there seems to be considerable misunderstanding about the place of religious values

Wed Oct 14, 2015, 02:30 PM

Oct 2015

Last edited Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:26 PM - Edit history (1)

in public policy, and just how much accommodation the faithful can expect for their particular values.

If I recall the numbers I read recently, 27% of British Muslims said they could sympathize with the Charlie Hebdo killers, for instance. That is, that they could understand why someone would want to murder a cartoonist for drawing a picture. That's shows a pretty broad and wild disconnect from a fundamental modern, western ideal of free speech. Imagine expecting that level of deference to your faith-- people cannot even draw pictures you don't like.

Now, lunch plans are, it seems to me personally, a benign example of religious consideration-- but again, if you're going to have a zero tolerance policy anywhere, this is the place I could see it being reasonable. You either want to keep these things utterly separated or you do not.

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Pork or nothing: how school dinners are dividing France [View all] FrodosPet Oct 2015 OP

No vegetarian options? Marrah_G Oct 2015 #1

This is one reason I do not care for France. As a vegan, it was very difficult to eat in Paris. emsimon33 Oct 2015 #181

Vegetarianism is practically unheard of in France. LoveIsNow Oct 2015 #182

How asinine struggle4progress Oct 2015 #2

They won't go hungry. They will get the side dishes. MADem Oct 2015 #3

I believe local school districts are still free to make whatever accommodations they want Major Nikon Oct 2015 #4

Good. nt MADem Oct 2015 #5

I agree. LuvNewcastle Oct 2015 #6

There are reasons other than religion why people don't eat pork or any meat at all SpartanDem Oct 2015 #8

My sons are vegetarian Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #9

True Major Nikon Oct 2015 #17

Right. They also don't give special meals to Catholics who observe meatless Fridays. pnwmom Oct 2015 #14

Hell, when I was in school, every Friday we got fish. Because Catholics. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #41

I assume you grew up in the US, not France. Their Constitution doesn't have the same pnwmom Oct 2015 #70

Pan pizza was also an option. MADem Oct 2015 #87

Many kids from India are vegetarians for religious reasons, so pork is off their list, too. nt tblue37 Oct 2015 #144

Me, too Aerows Oct 2015 #157

In my grade school, Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #184

And everybody got a meal. Aerows Oct 2015 #185

Do the Catholics ask for it? LittleBlue Oct 2015 #46

Theirs is a country with a constitution that has a much stronger wall between church and state pnwmom Oct 2015 #71

Does the French constitution demand that Muslim students be served pork? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #97

No more than it demands Jewish kids be served pork, or Hindu kids served beef. MADem Oct 2015 #118

I can't speak for everybody Aerows Oct 2015 #158

Peanut butter? In a school? The children will be accused of terrorism when a hazmat team hughee99 Oct 2015 #28

That's "only in America." They're learning that it's the hysterical attitudes of American parents MADem Oct 2015 #61

"they're making a blunt point, using food" Which is just wrong and mean. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #40

You'll have to take it up with the schools that are doing this. MADem Oct 2015 #56

I disagree. People have different food preferences and civilized societies respect them. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #65

You aren't the French government, or the mayor of the towns implementing this, so MADem Oct 2015 #69

No but I am a human being and this is a question of human rights. So yes, my opinion matters. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #80

It's not a question of human rights. No one is stopping people from bringing MADem Oct 2015 #81

We disagree. And they will back off on this. Just watch. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #83

Yes, like they backed off on the hijab law. MADem Oct 2015 #91

You're right. I'm not the right-wing xenophobe nationalist mayor of that town. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #98

Take it up with the European court. MADem Oct 2015 #101

by that definition mercuryblues Oct 2015 #141

France has a very strong wall between the State and Religion. This isn't an attack on Muslims. pnwmom Oct 2015 #72

This is absolutely an attack on Muslims. By right-wing xenophobes. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #99

Not an attack on Jews, though? MADem Oct 2015 #110

Who decided that pork is the "secular" choice? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #115

The French eat three times as much pork as Americans do. It is a staple meat in France. MADem Oct 2015 #129

NO ONE can enjoy wine with their public meal in Saudi Arabia, the French or anyone else. pnwmom Oct 2015 #73

"public meal" - now you are qualifying it in a way which it was not qualified before. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #78

You're pretending a school lunch is a private meal? MADem Oct 2015 #84

Put words in people's mouths much? yellowcanine Oct 2015 #85

Do you always confuse a question with someone putting words in your mouth? MADem Oct 2015 #89

I don't think that the proper role of government is to enforce "culture". Lyric Oct 2015 #122

I think you'd get an argument from most of the world, there--we're one of the few that does NOT have MADem Oct 2015 #125

silly Skittles Oct 2015 #7

Not at the schools my sons went to in America. Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #10

hence, the operating word SHOULD Skittles Oct 2015 #15

You said it like American schools had their shit together Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #19

I am not shit-talking anyone Skittles Oct 2015 #20

It's cost-effective to have limited choices Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #26

BS on that. No choices = wasted food. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #42

or you can send a lunch Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #43

Or the schools could quit being bigots and accommodate minor religious differences in food choices. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #48

And they could accommodate the "minor religious difference" of public prayer before MADem Oct 2015 #179

Not in my school 1939 Oct 2015 #74

I will bet that happens in French schools, too! MADem Oct 2015 #94

Those old spinster teachers 1939 Oct 2015 #120

Who knows? Maybe some of them came to love a strong woman!! nt MADem Oct 2015 #123

Exactly.. SoCalDem Oct 2015 #117

I can never remember having any more than one choice 1939 Oct 2015 #21

Mystery meat, a potatolike substance hifiguy Oct 2015 #121

Im not religious at all, and I dont touch the stuff. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #11

Pigs would eat you if given the opportunity Major Nikon Oct 2015 #18

But of course. Can ya blame em? Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #22

You'd taste just like pork Major Nikon Oct 2015 #23

I've read that human meat was referred to as "long pig" hifiguy Oct 2015 #58

isn't there a Simpsons thing about "long pig"? Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #76

That was Plopper the Pig, AKA Spider Pig Major Nikon Oct 2015 #82

Eat me, pal! AngryAmish Oct 2015 #30

See, but unlike you, I always know where I am. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #77

Feed 'em to the pigs Errol.. Erose999 Oct 2015 #161

I live in a village and we are able to reasonably accomodate every child. justice1 Oct 2015 #12

"We always have substitutes for the main entree." Exactly. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #44

That used to be the paradigm. And everyone survived. MADem Oct 2015 #178

The Muslims will be in the same position as Catholics who choose to observe meatless Fridays. pnwmom Oct 2015 #13

Jews take a hit, too. So do kids from India who don't eat beef. MADem Oct 2015 #100

They shouldn't accommodate religion; they should accommodate non-meat eaters. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #16

This seems reasonable. hifiguy Oct 2015 #59

Agreed. /nt Marr Oct 2015 #93

What are the reasons that Muslims and Jews don't eat pork? smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #24

Because God doesn't want them to. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #25

Back then (and for may centuries after), trichinosis was a deadly threat. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #29

That's what I always thought FrodosPet Oct 2015 #32

Powerful stuff back then, for sure. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #36

But that no longer holds true in the modern world, so there is really no religious reason not to eat smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #33

Yep. Rare pork is absolutely an option these days. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #35

Actually - no. "Closer to rare" yes, but not rare. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #57

Good to know! Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #60

And that assumes completely safe handling of the raw pork. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #66

There's really no reason to buy any of this religious nonsense in the modern world. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #39

And as dumb as those beliefs are hifiguy Oct 2015 #63

Very true. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #67

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. hifiguy Oct 2015 #79

LOL! That is one of my favorite episodes! smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #88

Classic! progressoid Oct 2015 #90

because mythology is big business for the few "heads" of each religion snooper2 Oct 2015 #145

There isn't any reason. Pious nonsense... LeftinOH Oct 2015 #34

Pork is more likely to carry diseases transmissible to humans. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #47

It goes back to history and food preparation Marrah_G Oct 2015 #54

However, the reason no longer exists. It may have made sense in ancient times, smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #148

I dont disagree, but religion isn't about logic. Marrah_G Oct 2015 #151

How 15th Century of them. They are reviving the Inquisition. GreatGazoo Oct 2015 #27

Serrano ham, hifiguy Oct 2015 #64

Quite the opposite. You couldn't be more wrong. pnwmom Oct 2015 #108

And for that the French deserve hifiguy Oct 2015 #165

Real asshole move by those schools. In towns run by "rightwing mayors." Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #31

+1. Thanks. closeupready Oct 2015 #37

I am going to disagree. I could see accomodating vegetarians in some fashion, Darb Oct 2015 #49

Disagree, they are standing up against the right wingers and other religious fundies pediatricmedic Oct 2015 #130

This may be unpopular here, but I think this is a sound position. Marr Oct 2015 #38

So because some "Muslim men" are intolerant ok to take it out on Muslim children? yellowcanine Oct 2015 #52

No, because there seems to be considerable misunderstanding about the place of religious values Marr Oct 2015 #62

There is a difference between IMPOSING religious values and ACCOMMODATING them. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #68

As usual, Marr Aerows Oct 2015 #162

Outstanding post, Aerows. hifiguy Oct 2015 #168

They came here because they saw it as a benefit to their lives. Aerows Oct 2015 #170

Yep. hifiguy Oct 2015 #171

No kidding! Aerows Oct 2015 #174

No. Because France has a sturdy wall between the state and religion -- ANY religion. pnwmom Oct 2015 #106

I have to agree with you, for the reasons you have stated. MADem Oct 2015 #114

If every institution in every country Aerows Oct 2015 #172

France is intolerant of Muslims LittleBlue Oct 2015 #45

Disagree. Darb Oct 2015 #50

Isn't that just religious intolerance cloaked as secularism? LittleBlue Oct 2015 #55

Ultimately, religion needs to go away - we shouldn't be tolerant of intolerance frizzled Oct 2015 #127

France is intolerant of picky eaters spinbaby Oct 2015 #75

And VERY tolerant of their pork industry I suspect. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #86

I'm not sure they have a pork industry spinbaby Oct 2015 #131

They sure do and it is in crisis. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #134

Looks like foreign competition is the issue spinbaby Oct 2015 #140

In a world market it always is. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #142

They could always come over here and get sent to Federal prison KamaAina Oct 2015 #51

I didn't realize the French were that much into pork KamaAina Oct 2015 #53

Italians and Spanish like it, too. As do Germans. And English. And Irish. MADem Oct 2015 #95

Well, Germans and Irish, yeah, I knew that. KamaAina Oct 2015 #96

Quiche Lorraine, Tourtierre (meat pies), Croques Monsier or Madame riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #103

Ah yes, croque-monsieur. KamaAina Oct 2015 #104

I saw sanglier (wild boar) hifiguy Oct 2015 #167

It's a popular item on restaurant menus. MADem Oct 2015 #105

Meat of any kind is really popular there. closeupready Oct 2015 #102

Free-roaming pigs are highly efficient meat-producers. hifiguy Oct 2015 #166

self delete Blue_In_AK Oct 2015 #92

Some of the posts are bewildering. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #107

Exactly. And France has a Constitution that has a much more solid wall between pnwmom Oct 2015 #109

OWCH!!!!!!! THREAD WIN!!!!!!! MADem Oct 2015 #113

Thanks. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #116

It's genuinely nice to hear from principled liberals who don't have double standards for religions frizzled Oct 2015 #126

This is something that confuses the hell out of me as well. Marr Oct 2015 #135

Some on the far left hate anything "West", so be it politics, putin, or poor fundies in Syria snooper2 Oct 2015 #147

I do think that's an element of it. Marr Oct 2015 #163

This message was self-deleted by its author Bradical79 Oct 2015 #183

They should make it "eat dog meat or go hungry". redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #111

If dog meat were a common part of the French diet, that would be one thing riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #119

Again, who gets to define what the norm is? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #154

You've got it exactly backward. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #155

Muslims wouldn't eat dog either Fumesucker Oct 2015 #133

How is pork the "secular" choice? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #112

It is a staple meat in French cuisine. It is not "ridiculous" if you understand anything about the MADem Oct 2015 #128

So who gets to define what "French culture" means? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #153

You probably don't understand that this concept was operative during the French colonial years. MADem Oct 2015 #164

Just like bacon and eggs is a secular choice in the U.S. pnwmom Oct 2015 #138

Maybe I prefer pancakes over bacon and eggs. redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #152

Because "secular" is not "neutral" in France Recursion Oct 2015 #146

"Assimilate, or get out" is consistent with a secular, liberal republic. frizzled Oct 2015 #124

No, it isn't. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #136

France has a long history of a very high, strong wall between Church and State. pnwmom Oct 2015 #139

What I find interesting about this story is about my school cafeteria. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #132

How about banning beef because of Hindus? Or all meat because of vegans? Yorktown Oct 2015 #137

This is deliberate religious bigotry, and it is aimed at schoolchildren ffs! tblue37 Oct 2015 #143

I'm Jewish MosheFeingold Oct 2015 #149

If you don't like the school lunch, pack your own Freddie Stubbs Oct 2015 #150

Problem solved. You read my mind. nt cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #176

This message was self-deleted by its author BigDemVoter Oct 2015 #156

My problem is them framing this as a national identity thing.... Humanist_Activist Oct 2015 #159

Cultural Identity is a compelling thing Aerows Oct 2015 #160

How sad that so many DUers are supporting France's religious right in warping la�cit� ... Bad Thoughts Oct 2015 #169

The French do not have a "religous right" hifiguy Oct 2015 #173

The constitution does not outlaw clerical parties Bad Thoughts Oct 2015 #175

If you want to live in a society that forces women Aerows Oct 2015 #177

What does this have to do with me? Bad Thoughts Oct 2015 #187

That is unfortunate. hifiguy Oct 2015 #180

Thank you. Aerows Oct 2015 #186