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pnwmom

(110,336 posts)

72. France has a very strong wall between the State and Religion. This isn't an attack on Muslims.

Wed Oct 14, 2015, 03:05 PM

Oct 2015

It's a refusal to make an exception to their Constitutional guarantee not to build religious exceptions into their policies and practices.

The Constitution isn't a Muslim Constitution or a Christian Constitution -- or even a Constitution with religious guarantees. It is a SECULAR constitution that makes no special provisions for anyone's religion. Catholics who want meatless Fridays also don't get special food. They can eat the salad, the bread, etc., just as the Muslims can when the meat offering happens to be pork.

To understand this, you have to understand French history and why they wrote a Constitution that took religion out of the equation. And you have to understand that our Constitutional guarantees for religion, the ones drilled into our heads since childhood, are not a part of the French mindset. The wall between Church and State is.

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Pork or nothing: how school dinners are dividing France [View all] FrodosPet Oct 2015 OP

No vegetarian options? Marrah_G Oct 2015 #1

This is one reason I do not care for France. As a vegan, it was very difficult to eat in Paris. emsimon33 Oct 2015 #181

Vegetarianism is practically unheard of in France. LoveIsNow Oct 2015 #182

How asinine struggle4progress Oct 2015 #2

They won't go hungry. They will get the side dishes. MADem Oct 2015 #3

I believe local school districts are still free to make whatever accommodations they want Major Nikon Oct 2015 #4

Good. nt MADem Oct 2015 #5

I agree. LuvNewcastle Oct 2015 #6

There are reasons other than religion why people don't eat pork or any meat at all SpartanDem Oct 2015 #8

My sons are vegetarian Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #9

True Major Nikon Oct 2015 #17

Right. They also don't give special meals to Catholics who observe meatless Fridays. pnwmom Oct 2015 #14

Hell, when I was in school, every Friday we got fish. Because Catholics. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #41

I assume you grew up in the US, not France. Their Constitution doesn't have the same pnwmom Oct 2015 #70

Pan pizza was also an option. MADem Oct 2015 #87

Many kids from India are vegetarians for religious reasons, so pork is off their list, too. nt tblue37 Oct 2015 #144

Me, too Aerows Oct 2015 #157

In my grade school, Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #184

And everybody got a meal. Aerows Oct 2015 #185

Do the Catholics ask for it? LittleBlue Oct 2015 #46

Theirs is a country with a constitution that has a much stronger wall between church and state pnwmom Oct 2015 #71

Does the French constitution demand that Muslim students be served pork? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #97

No more than it demands Jewish kids be served pork, or Hindu kids served beef. MADem Oct 2015 #118

I can't speak for everybody Aerows Oct 2015 #158

Peanut butter? In a school? The children will be accused of terrorism when a hazmat team hughee99 Oct 2015 #28

That's "only in America." They're learning that it's the hysterical attitudes of American parents MADem Oct 2015 #61

"they're making a blunt point, using food" Which is just wrong and mean. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #40

You'll have to take it up with the schools that are doing this. MADem Oct 2015 #56

I disagree. People have different food preferences and civilized societies respect them. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #65

You aren't the French government, or the mayor of the towns implementing this, so MADem Oct 2015 #69

No but I am a human being and this is a question of human rights. So yes, my opinion matters. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #80

It's not a question of human rights. No one is stopping people from bringing MADem Oct 2015 #81

We disagree. And they will back off on this. Just watch. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #83

Yes, like they backed off on the hijab law. MADem Oct 2015 #91

You're right. I'm not the right-wing xenophobe nationalist mayor of that town. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #98

Take it up with the European court. MADem Oct 2015 #101

by that definition mercuryblues Oct 2015 #141

France has a very strong wall between the State and Religion. This isn't an attack on Muslims. pnwmom Oct 2015 #72

This is absolutely an attack on Muslims. By right-wing xenophobes. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #99

Not an attack on Jews, though? MADem Oct 2015 #110

Who decided that pork is the "secular" choice? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #115

The French eat three times as much pork as Americans do. It is a staple meat in France. MADem Oct 2015 #129

NO ONE can enjoy wine with their public meal in Saudi Arabia, the French or anyone else. pnwmom Oct 2015 #73

"public meal" - now you are qualifying it in a way which it was not qualified before. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #78

You're pretending a school lunch is a private meal? MADem Oct 2015 #84

Put words in people's mouths much? yellowcanine Oct 2015 #85

Do you always confuse a question with someone putting words in your mouth? MADem Oct 2015 #89

I don't think that the proper role of government is to enforce "culture". Lyric Oct 2015 #122

I think you'd get an argument from most of the world, there--we're one of the few that does NOT have MADem Oct 2015 #125

silly Skittles Oct 2015 #7

Not at the schools my sons went to in America. Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #10

hence, the operating word SHOULD Skittles Oct 2015 #15

You said it like American schools had their shit together Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #19

I am not shit-talking anyone Skittles Oct 2015 #20

It's cost-effective to have limited choices Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #26

BS on that. No choices = wasted food. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #42

or you can send a lunch Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #43

Or the schools could quit being bigots and accommodate minor religious differences in food choices. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #48

And they could accommodate the "minor religious difference" of public prayer before MADem Oct 2015 #179

Not in my school 1939 Oct 2015 #74

I will bet that happens in French schools, too! MADem Oct 2015 #94

Those old spinster teachers 1939 Oct 2015 #120

Who knows? Maybe some of them came to love a strong woman!! nt MADem Oct 2015 #123

Exactly.. SoCalDem Oct 2015 #117

I can never remember having any more than one choice 1939 Oct 2015 #21

Mystery meat, a potatolike substance hifiguy Oct 2015 #121

Im not religious at all, and I dont touch the stuff. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #11

Pigs would eat you if given the opportunity Major Nikon Oct 2015 #18

But of course. Can ya blame em? Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #22

You'd taste just like pork Major Nikon Oct 2015 #23

I've read that human meat was referred to as "long pig" hifiguy Oct 2015 #58

isn't there a Simpsons thing about "long pig"? Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #76

That was Plopper the Pig, AKA Spider Pig Major Nikon Oct 2015 #82

Eat me, pal! AngryAmish Oct 2015 #30

See, but unlike you, I always know where I am. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #77

Feed 'em to the pigs Errol.. Erose999 Oct 2015 #161

I live in a village and we are able to reasonably accomodate every child. justice1 Oct 2015 #12

"We always have substitutes for the main entree." Exactly. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #44

That used to be the paradigm. And everyone survived. MADem Oct 2015 #178

The Muslims will be in the same position as Catholics who choose to observe meatless Fridays. pnwmom Oct 2015 #13

Jews take a hit, too. So do kids from India who don't eat beef. MADem Oct 2015 #100

They shouldn't accommodate religion; they should accommodate non-meat eaters. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #16

This seems reasonable. hifiguy Oct 2015 #59

Agreed. /nt Marr Oct 2015 #93

What are the reasons that Muslims and Jews don't eat pork? smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #24

Because God doesn't want them to. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #25

Back then (and for may centuries after), trichinosis was a deadly threat. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #29

That's what I always thought FrodosPet Oct 2015 #32

Powerful stuff back then, for sure. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #36

But that no longer holds true in the modern world, so there is really no religious reason not to eat smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #33

Yep. Rare pork is absolutely an option these days. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #35

Actually - no. "Closer to rare" yes, but not rare. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #57

Good to know! Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #60

And that assumes completely safe handling of the raw pork. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #66

There's really no reason to buy any of this religious nonsense in the modern world. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #39

And as dumb as those beliefs are hifiguy Oct 2015 #63

Very true. Arugula Latte Oct 2015 #67

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. hifiguy Oct 2015 #79

LOL! That is one of my favorite episodes! smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #88

Classic! progressoid Oct 2015 #90

because mythology is big business for the few "heads" of each religion snooper2 Oct 2015 #145

There isn't any reason. Pious nonsense... LeftinOH Oct 2015 #34

Pork is more likely to carry diseases transmissible to humans. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #47

It goes back to history and food preparation Marrah_G Oct 2015 #54

However, the reason no longer exists. It may have made sense in ancient times, smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #148

I dont disagree, but religion isn't about logic. Marrah_G Oct 2015 #151

How 15th Century of them. They are reviving the Inquisition. GreatGazoo Oct 2015 #27

Serrano ham, hifiguy Oct 2015 #64

Quite the opposite. You couldn't be more wrong. pnwmom Oct 2015 #108

And for that the French deserve hifiguy Oct 2015 #165

Real asshole move by those schools. In towns run by "rightwing mayors." Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #31

+1. Thanks. closeupready Oct 2015 #37

I am going to disagree. I could see accomodating vegetarians in some fashion, Darb Oct 2015 #49

Disagree, they are standing up against the right wingers and other religious fundies pediatricmedic Oct 2015 #130

This may be unpopular here, but I think this is a sound position. Marr Oct 2015 #38

So because some "Muslim men" are intolerant ok to take it out on Muslim children? yellowcanine Oct 2015 #52

No, because there seems to be considerable misunderstanding about the place of religious values Marr Oct 2015 #62

There is a difference between IMPOSING religious values and ACCOMMODATING them. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #68

As usual, Marr Aerows Oct 2015 #162

Outstanding post, Aerows. hifiguy Oct 2015 #168

They came here because they saw it as a benefit to their lives. Aerows Oct 2015 #170

Yep. hifiguy Oct 2015 #171

No kidding! Aerows Oct 2015 #174

No. Because France has a sturdy wall between the state and religion -- ANY religion. pnwmom Oct 2015 #106

I have to agree with you, for the reasons you have stated. MADem Oct 2015 #114

If every institution in every country Aerows Oct 2015 #172

France is intolerant of Muslims LittleBlue Oct 2015 #45

Disagree. Darb Oct 2015 #50

Isn't that just religious intolerance cloaked as secularism? LittleBlue Oct 2015 #55

Ultimately, religion needs to go away - we shouldn't be tolerant of intolerance frizzled Oct 2015 #127

France is intolerant of picky eaters spinbaby Oct 2015 #75

And VERY tolerant of their pork industry I suspect. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #86

I'm not sure they have a pork industry spinbaby Oct 2015 #131

They sure do and it is in crisis. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #134

Looks like foreign competition is the issue spinbaby Oct 2015 #140

In a world market it always is. yellowcanine Oct 2015 #142

They could always come over here and get sent to Federal prison KamaAina Oct 2015 #51

I didn't realize the French were that much into pork KamaAina Oct 2015 #53

Italians and Spanish like it, too. As do Germans. And English. And Irish. MADem Oct 2015 #95

Well, Germans and Irish, yeah, I knew that. KamaAina Oct 2015 #96

Quiche Lorraine, Tourtierre (meat pies), Croques Monsier or Madame riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #103

Ah yes, croque-monsieur. KamaAina Oct 2015 #104

I saw sanglier (wild boar) hifiguy Oct 2015 #167

It's a popular item on restaurant menus. MADem Oct 2015 #105

Meat of any kind is really popular there. closeupready Oct 2015 #102

Free-roaming pigs are highly efficient meat-producers. hifiguy Oct 2015 #166

self delete Blue_In_AK Oct 2015 #92

Some of the posts are bewildering. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #107

Exactly. And France has a Constitution that has a much more solid wall between pnwmom Oct 2015 #109

OWCH!!!!!!! THREAD WIN!!!!!!! MADem Oct 2015 #113

Thanks. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #116

It's genuinely nice to hear from principled liberals who don't have double standards for religions frizzled Oct 2015 #126

This is something that confuses the hell out of me as well. Marr Oct 2015 #135

Some on the far left hate anything "West", so be it politics, putin, or poor fundies in Syria snooper2 Oct 2015 #147

I do think that's an element of it. Marr Oct 2015 #163

This message was self-deleted by its author Bradical79 Oct 2015 #183

They should make it "eat dog meat or go hungry". redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #111

If dog meat were a common part of the French diet, that would be one thing riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #119

Again, who gets to define what the norm is? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #154

You've got it exactly backward. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #155

Muslims wouldn't eat dog either Fumesucker Oct 2015 #133

How is pork the "secular" choice? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #112

It is a staple meat in French cuisine. It is not "ridiculous" if you understand anything about the MADem Oct 2015 #128

So who gets to define what "French culture" means? redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #153

You probably don't understand that this concept was operative during the French colonial years. MADem Oct 2015 #164

Just like bacon and eggs is a secular choice in the U.S. pnwmom Oct 2015 #138

Maybe I prefer pancakes over bacon and eggs. redgreenandblue Oct 2015 #152

Because "secular" is not "neutral" in France Recursion Oct 2015 #146

"Assimilate, or get out" is consistent with a secular, liberal republic. frizzled Oct 2015 #124

No, it isn't. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #136

France has a long history of a very high, strong wall between Church and State. pnwmom Oct 2015 #139

What I find interesting about this story is about my school cafeteria. Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #132

How about banning beef because of Hindus? Or all meat because of vegans? Yorktown Oct 2015 #137

This is deliberate religious bigotry, and it is aimed at schoolchildren ffs! tblue37 Oct 2015 #143

I'm Jewish MosheFeingold Oct 2015 #149

If you don't like the school lunch, pack your own Freddie Stubbs Oct 2015 #150

Problem solved. You read my mind. nt cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #176

This message was self-deleted by its author BigDemVoter Oct 2015 #156

My problem is them framing this as a national identity thing.... Humanist_Activist Oct 2015 #159

Cultural Identity is a compelling thing Aerows Oct 2015 #160

How sad that so many DUers are supporting France's religious right in warping la�cit� ... Bad Thoughts Oct 2015 #169

The French do not have a "religous right" hifiguy Oct 2015 #173

The constitution does not outlaw clerical parties Bad Thoughts Oct 2015 #175

If you want to live in a society that forces women Aerows Oct 2015 #177

What does this have to do with me? Bad Thoughts Oct 2015 #187

That is unfortunate. hifiguy Oct 2015 #180

Thank you. Aerows Oct 2015 #186