General Discussion

Xithras

(16,191 posts)

132. In spite of the families claim, it wasn't an illegal stop.

Fri Oct 16, 2015, 02:09 PM

Oct 2015

The family has stated that it isn't illegal to flash your brights at someone, but that's factually false. Michigan law says that it's a citable offense to have your brights on within 500 feet of oncoming traffic if they cause "glare", and doesn't draw any distinction between "switched on" and "flashed on". Failure to keep your brights off is an infraction that will get you two points on your license. The fact that Michigan law doesn't have any exceptions in its law for "flashing", as many other states do, has been the source of arguments between drivers and cops for decades.

In the video, the kid clearly admits to flashing his brights, which gave the officer the legal right to pull him over. The kid shouldn't have been shot over an alleged fist fight, but the initial stop was not illegal.

FWIW, a quick Google search turned up this Michigan Live piece that addressed this exact issue several years ago. Scroll down about halfway to the "doughboy" question to skip to the part about flashing: http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/traffic_talk_should_you_turn_o.html

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Teenager Alerts Police That They Left Their Brights on -- 5 Minutes Later They Shoot Him Dead [View all] justiceischeap Oct 2015 OP

What can be said ???? nt. k and r.. Stuart G Oct 2015 #1

Always listen and do what a cop tells you FormerRepublicanNow Oct 2015 #256

Yeah, great. Just give up. Let the cops be whatever law they want to be. WinkyDink Oct 2015 #273

Dd you watch the video, the kid was a smart ass FormerRepublicanNow Oct 2015 #290

1. "Smart-assery" is not illegal; 2. Nor is flashing one's lights; 3. Thus, the COP acted illegally. WinkyDink Oct 2015 #292

Flashing high-beams is illegal according to Michigan's driving booklet pintobean Oct 2015 #296

That oughtta teach him a lesson. lpbk2713 Oct 2015 #2

Do not hit a cop yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #10

I didn't see him hit the cop. I watched the entire video brush Oct 2015 #25

Sorry. Down thread they were mentioning he hit him. yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #30

Hiring higher iq cops is something that many departments are against actually... Lancero Oct 2015 #31

I know, but they shouldn't be. brush Oct 2015 #40

I didn't see him hit the cop either. I bet he got those bruises after his "backup arrived." kelliekat44 Oct 2015 #67

Any LEO who stands by while another crosses the line ... lpbk2713 Oct 2015 #82

I wonder about this comment of your's also. brush Oct 2015 #117

It's a small, rural community - the protests are hand painted Pathwalker Oct 2015 #174

Wish there was more that could be done. brush Oct 2015 #176

I got stopped for doing that once. Crunchy Frog Oct 2015 #141

"Reasonable orders"? Police are to use LAWFUL orders. WinkyDink Oct 2015 #274

Well, I've never regarded a request for license, registration, and proof of insurance Crunchy Frog Oct 2015 #279

Ever hear of "reasonable cause"? Cops can't legally simply stop people and "request" your list. So WinkyDink Oct 2015 #291

A doctor characterized his[the cop] injuries as "significant facial trauma," hack89 Oct 2015 #154

There's a lot of info in that article pintobean Oct 2015 #167

I don't believe it was necessary to kill the boy. Even if he hit the cop and ran. rhett o rick Oct 2015 #207

And shot SEVEN times at point blank range. Midnight Writer Oct 2015 #222

Our police forces are very welcoming to psycopaths. Sadly the others will cover for them. nm rhett o rick Oct 2015 #226

Very similar to george zimmerman's story brush Oct 2015 #171

After 108324n23nu videos of cops lying out of their teeth I don't take their word for it any longer uponit7771 Oct 2015 #173

Was the doctor lying? nt hack89 Oct 2015 #177

Who knows, he might not be accurate if his analysis was based off of the word of the cop uponit7771 Oct 2015 #178

Don't you think his analysis was based on a medical exam? hack89 Oct 2015 #179

Some people tried the same BS over Sandra Bland and kept insisting she was killed before she cstanleytech Oct 2015 #181

If you want to be overescalating cops should be given the benefit of the doubt the feel free also uponit7771 Oct 2015 #189

Its more like everyone should be given it, in this case I will wait to hear about the varies cstanleytech Oct 2015 #231

Most likely. Or at least exagerating if he knew what's good for him. nm rhett o rick Oct 2015 #208

So you know the doctor? hack89 Oct 2015 #211

Do you know him? rhett o rick Oct 2015 #213

So you pulled that out of your ass hack89 Oct 2015 #220

And you object because of your opinion of cops. Cops kill if people don't give them the rhett o rick Oct 2015 #229

We are talking about the doctor hack89 Oct 2015 #255

It's my opinion that a doctor in this situation would be under a lot of pressure and may rhett o rick Oct 2015 #259

What exactly is "significant facial trauma"? Captain Stern Oct 2015 #280

The appropriate response to that is an assault charge stranger81 Oct 2015 #216

I think it is pretty obvious by now, some cops are predatory killers just looking to take someone Rex Oct 2015 #3

This story is getting world wide coverage.. Stuart G Oct 2015 #4

There is no proof of a fight, just the killers word. Rex Oct 2015 #8

we need a national "do not hire" list questionseverything Oct 2015 #114

Not a bad idea davidpdx Oct 2015 #251

In fact I was just looking this up on DU because I saw it on the news here in Korea davidpdx Oct 2015 #252

Maybe there's more to the story. The police officer was injured, too. pnwmom Oct 2015 #5

It is a fight..sure he might get injured...is the sentence "death" cause of a fight? in USA, yes Stuart G Oct 2015 #6

No. But the OP doesn't indicate there was a fight. The description pnwmom Oct 2015 #98

because there is no proof there was a fight questionseverything Oct 2015 #112

So? The article left off any discussion of the officer's side of the story. pnwmom Oct 2015 #155

If the officer had cuts or bruises that usually is a decent indicator that there was an cstanleytech Oct 2015 #180

His backup arrives and asks, "How much damage do you want?" He replies, tblue37 Oct 2015 #182

I would say the kid failed to respect providing his license as requested which usually no matter cstanleytech Oct 2015 #185

One does not have to provide one's license---IF THE COP HAD NO REASON TO STOP ONE. WinkyDink Oct 2015 #294

Good luck trying that and not getting ticketed and or arrested. nt cstanleytech Oct 2015 #300

yes i think it is a lie.... questionseverything Oct 2015 #184

Dont you have to actually still be alive for something like your knuckles to swell after a fight? cstanleytech Oct 2015 #186

'There is no video of the confrontation' Rex Oct 2015 #7

So, ya think he did this pintobean Oct 2015 #9

Well that changes things a bit, doesn't it? nt B2G Oct 2015 #11

Not at all. It was an illegal stop, arrest and excessive use of force. morningfog Oct 2015 #91

In spite of the families claim, it wasn't an illegal stop. Xithras Oct 2015 #132

but if it's illegal for the kid to flash his lights... smiley Oct 2015 #209

He didn't have his high beams on. The lights were just bright. Waldorf Oct 2015 #219

Did you read this? 3rd time this cop responded to such light flashing for high beams uppityperson Oct 2015 #224

Yes, I have read this numerous times. Evidently the lights were bright and he had pulled people Waldorf Oct 2015 #239

Or if the cop wasn't an ass about having maladjusted lights. Or waited for the backup he had uppityperson Oct 2015 #260

Oh good god. Hissyspit Oct 2015 #232

To stay out of prison for murdering someone? Rex Oct 2015 #13

So, all the evidence pintobean Oct 2015 #15

That is how you think since you cannot be objective enough to ever see wrong in law enforcement. Rex Oct 2015 #17

No, I wait for the facts, you don't. pintobean Oct 2015 #24

Kewl story bro, if only your posting history said otherwise. Rex Oct 2015 #27

lol pintobean Oct 2015 #28

Yes that is what everyone does that has the misfortune of having to communicate with you. Rex Oct 2015 #34

I dont respond to certain people here, as hard as they try and get me to. randys1 Oct 2015 #127

It's heartbreaking, Randy pintobean Oct 2015 #136

Smart. Rex Oct 2015 #137

Absolutely, they JUMP all over you if you make a mistake or come close to something they can hide randys1 Oct 2015 #139

Yeah the similarities between their monitoring of us and places like CC and FR watching us Rex Oct 2015 #140

Observing from the bush Fairgo Oct 2015 #190

Sometimes I just smell vinegar pintobean Oct 2015 #212

Me too! me too! Fairgo Oct 2015 #215

yeah, and Eric Garner wasn't choked. marym625 Oct 2015 #197

Where'd the photo come from? brush Oct 2015 #42

The link in post #5. Detroit Free Press pintobean Oct 2015 #49

A lot of dried blood, but no other visual evidence of injury... 1monster Oct 2015 #69

This looks like a gash to me pintobean Oct 2015 #78

Looks pretty fake to me kcr Oct 2015 #101

Head wounds bleed like a motherfucker. Brickbat Oct 2015 #110

Wrestlers put tiny nicks in their forhead and it bleeds profusely arcane1 Oct 2015 #130

That appears to be a recoil injury, from the weapon's slide Ash_F Oct 2015 #235

This is becoming a Zimmerman rerun. pintobean Oct 2015 #246

The jury is back. NaturalHigh Oct 2015 #271

That's a personal attack by the alerter. pintobean Oct 2015 #272

That guy was guilty as sin. /nt Ash_F Oct 2015 #278

Looks fake . stonecutter357 Oct 2015 #247

Yeah, lucky for him pintobean Oct 2015 #248

does look strange Locrian Oct 2015 #88

Beacuse skin is stretched relatively tightly over the skull, it actually doesn't take much to break Brickbat Oct 2015 #111

Swelling and bruising usually takes time to develop. Do we know when this was taken? pnwmom Oct 2015 #95

It was taken when that blood was dribbled over his face kcr Oct 2015 #104

At NASA studios, no doubt. pintobean Oct 2015 #108

In the injuries I've had where there was swelling, the swelling was almost instant. 1monster Oct 2015 #203

That gash between the eyes is where the blood come from. ileus Oct 2015 #150

yes, dried blood. and more like puncture wounds hopemountain Oct 2015 #199

But to me it looks zalinda Oct 2015 #70

Yes I do SoLeftIAmRight Oct 2015 #97

No evidence the teen had anything to do with this cut damnedifIknow Oct 2015 #113

The fact that we haven't seen any evidence pintobean Oct 2015 #119

This message was self-deleted by its author damnedifIknow Oct 2015 #121

Do you seriously bleive they are above punching each other in the face melman Oct 2015 #120

I don't think complicated conspiracies are likely pintobean Oct 2015 #124

The Sam Dubose Police Report Is Full of Falsehoods From Ray Tensing�s Fellow Officers Starry Messenger Oct 2015 #158

Makes ya wonder about people that never see anything but black and white. Rex Oct 2015 #162

I agree. Starry Messenger Oct 2015 #163

Like mixing two volatile chemicals and not expecting an explosion. Rex Oct 2015 #165

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #123

so? punching is a natural response to getting tased, shot, punched, or clubbed MillennialDem Oct 2015 #131

I saw that at an all-star wrestling match once Fairgo Oct 2015 #191

head wounds bleed like crazy marym625 Oct 2015 #196

Darren Wilson had facial injuries too.. frylock Oct 2015 #18

Oh yeah SwankyXomb Oct 2015 #23

The thing is, in the video confrontation justiceischeap Oct 2015 #22

Don't believe your lying eyes! JoeyT Oct 2015 #76

He had NO FUCKING REASON to pull him over. morningfog Oct 2015 #87

People are ignoring that salient fact. WinkyDink Oct 2015 #275

Technically speaking, there was a law that said no flashing brights within 500 feet mythology Oct 2015 #295

Is that the cop's blood on his face? Kingofalldems Oct 2015 #12

Does kind of look like blood spatter. brush Oct 2015 #43

Lock the PIG up and I hope the family ends up owning the whole damned County! n/t Ghost in the Machine Oct 2015 #14

Looks like the urban myth about gangs shooting people for flashing their lights is true. frylock Oct 2015 #16

seems like a simple enough matter hfojvt Oct 2015 #19

So the kid deserved it? Kingofalldems Oct 2015 #21

there are smart things to do hfojvt Oct 2015 #44

Well, the cop did make the decision to use deadly force Blue_Tires Oct 2015 #77

And if people died for being stupid, there would be a lot less posters on DU. n/t A Simple Game Oct 2015 #86

Illegal stop, illegal arrest, the cop was looking for a fight. morningfog Oct 2015 #93

Kid would still be alive today had the cop not shut him brentspeak Oct 2015 #115

have you seen the picture of the cop's face? hfojvt Oct 2015 #129

You mean all the blood from the kid that got shot? Rex Oct 2015 #164

Yes, the cop is the bad guy. Really! GeorgeGist Oct 2015 #249

The boy did not deserve to die over this. avaistheone1 Oct 2015 #26

usually when they are being assaulted hfojvt Oct 2015 #56

So it's OK in your view for a cop to over react and shoot sometime, but if they assault a person, uppityperson Oct 2015 #225

When they are assaulted. Kid would be alive today if he had just did the simple thing the cop asked. Waldorf Oct 2015 #65

This message was self-deleted by its author Jake Stern Oct 2015 #116

How in the world could you know that? uppityperson Oct 2015 #227

I really hope that you were trying for sarcasm here and that I am misinterpreting your post. Moostache Oct 2015 #36

we pay the cops to do certain things hfojvt Oct 2015 #55

We do not pay the cops to murder citizens that dare to question the cop's authority. (nt) jeff47 Oct 2015 #75

except that's not what the cop did hfojvt Oct 2015 #103

Says the cop. jeff47 Oct 2015 #106

Jesus wept. (n/t) Moostache Oct 2015 #188

Too bad you weren't there. snort Oct 2015 #39

you do realize hfojvt Oct 2015 #59

Yes, just obey and everything will be all right. Demit Oct 2015 #83

Why are you defending criminal cops? Taitertots Oct 2015 #100

That's the way it seems LittleBlue Oct 2015 #105

The kids was wrong, but he didn't deserve to be murdered in cold blood. nm rhett o rick Oct 2015 #187

It's heartbreaking to see every possible wrong decision being made here. Brickbat Oct 2015 #20

I agree. pintobean Oct 2015 #35

"We all know who has the badge." Brickbat Oct 2015 #41

It's heartbreaking to see every possible wrong decision being made here. AlbertCat Oct 2015 #48

NP. People here will justify the shooting it is in their DNA. Rex Oct 2015 #51

I am so OVER this kind of argument! chervilant Oct 2015 #198

Seriously. Hissyspit Oct 2015 #204

That is so true!! Chemisse Oct 2015 #210

I'll repeat this.... AlbertCat Oct 2015 #302

Sometimes it takes a horrible incident such as this riversedge Oct 2015 #29

that is the point,police brutality and even murder by police can happen to anyone questionseverything Oct 2015 #125

Cops today are like predatory animals, dangerous, and some seek prey to kill! n/t RKP5637 Oct 2015 #32

I'm not sure whether this shooting was justified, or not. Captain Stern Oct 2015 #33

Pulling the teen over was not justified since it was not illegal to flash his headlights. Rex Oct 2015 #37

Except that it is illegal to flash your brights in Michigan Xithras Oct 2015 #134

Link? Rex Oct 2015 #143

Here ya go... Xithras Oct 2015 #148

Thanks, yeah everything I read said the shooting was legal but completely unnecessary. Rex Oct 2015 #153

That's what it comes down to for me. Xithras Oct 2015 #172

That's the best way I've seen it written down and agree 100%. Rex Oct 2015 #175

According to the law, the stop was legal. Captain Stern Oct 2015 #276

Exactly Geronimoe Oct 2015 #60

And if you know that ... knightmaar Oct 2015 #64

EXACTLY what I noticed... Whiskeytide Oct 2015 #149

Overreaction all around, but only one of the parties is dead tularetom Oct 2015 #38

What makes you think we were wrong about Ferguson? IVoteDFL Oct 2015 #53

OK, I'll correct that - I was wrong tularetom Oct 2015 #74

Ferguson was never "wrong" Blue_Tires Oct 2015 #68

Darren Wilson is one lucky cop. If someone had had a cell video going . . . brush Oct 2015 #72

He fled the crime scene like a criminal wanted for murder and then fled town Rex Oct 2015 #146

Yep! Another coward with a gun brush Oct 2015 #169

Yay, Motherfucking Cops! Iggo Oct 2015 #45

The police are out of control, end of story. They are not taught how to deescalate situations and Pisces Oct 2015 #46

Do you have to produce license, registration etc. in Michigan? knightmaar Oct 2015 #47

Yeah, you do: knightmaar Oct 2015 #50

Moral of the story, wait for backup. Rex Oct 2015 #52

A sociopath doesn't feel any remorse. wolfie001 Oct 2015 #159

Jesus... WillyT Oct 2015 #54

Guess the killer cop didn't give the kid time to develop Stockholm syndrome. brush Oct 2015 #217

Law enforcement is a safe haven for murderous psychopaths and cowardly killers tabasco Oct 2015 #57

Exactly. Duppers Oct 2015 #81

Remember back to 9/11, they were all sainted heroes. wolfie001 Oct 2015 #161

yea where is the video questionseverything Oct 2015 #277

Other moral - don't ever seek the attention of law enforcement unless you are prepared Rex Oct 2015 #58

But he had no way of knowing that was a cop car knightmaar Oct 2015 #62

True, I've flashed cars at night for the same reason. Rex Oct 2015 #63

These people should have their guns taken away. Initech Oct 2015 #61

All he had to do was taser the kid and wait for backup. Rex Oct 2015 #66

"The officer did nothing to calm or de-escalate the situation. Instead, Frost rapidly became a kennedy Oct 2015 #71

Black Deaths Matter! libodem Oct 2015 #73

The kid was white brush Oct 2015 #218

Why did the cop pull him over? gwheezie Oct 2015 #79

Lilly white old man here-with a lethargic old dog metal detecting in a park. Boxerfan Oct 2015 #80

I'm curious, did he have a shaved head, like the cop pictured here? Demit Oct 2015 #94

The skinhead look is usually a deliberate signal to others that one has the tblue37 Oct 2015 #192

+1 nt Live and Learn Oct 2015 #107

I was harassed by 1 for having the audacity of not knowing all street names in my town uppityperson Oct 2015 #228

Just another day in the police state called Murica. Lint Head Oct 2015 #84

zero tolerance for cop killers. Put them in jail, put them on the death penalty for murder patsimp Oct 2015 #85

You mean killer cops, right? SwankyXomb Oct 2015 #118

The cop pulled the kid over just to be a dick. Hassin Bin Sober Oct 2015 #89

Yup. Hissyspit Oct 2015 #233

Once again, a collection of horrible decisions by both sides ends in tragic results. Oneironaut Oct 2015 #90

I wouldn't go there with the 'both sides' bit. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #122

Teen dead because he had the audacity to flash his brights damnedifIknow Oct 2015 #92

Why didn't he tase the kid when he was on the ground and resisted? Reter Oct 2015 #96

I wonder if he meant to tase him, but pulled out the wrong one and is now covering it up? Oneironaut Oct 2015 #99

I just read another story that he did tase him, according to the officer at least Reter Oct 2015 #102

He did but the Taser didn't work properly hack89 Oct 2015 #156

Same thing with Wilson and Brown, cops are taught to kill first ... that's their training uponit7771 Oct 2015 #168

He did tase him. The kid kept his phone in his hand to videotape the cop's actions, so tblue37 Oct 2015 #285

We need a live feed going in real time to the station.... Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2015 #109

As stated above... TipTok Oct 2015 #266

I wasn't aware it carried the death sentence. Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2015 #268

I suspect that a close reading of the law will agree with you... TipTok Oct 2015 #283

"Stuff that happened" AKA: Maniac cop. Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2015 #284

The tape needs to also be automatically uploaded to be viewed by a civilian review board if tblue37 Oct 2015 #286

Both, for review. Spitfire of ATJ Oct 2015 #289

Thanks for posting, but no thanks for the snarky comment. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #126

In no way am I claiming they do however justiceischeap Oct 2015 #157

Who cares even if he did punch the cop? fight or flight is a natural MillennialDem Oct 2015 #128

There's a recent post upthread pintobean Oct 2015 #135

again so? fight or flight is a natural reaction MillennialDem Oct 2015 #138

The kid died because he knew he was driving without a license. cadaverdog Oct 2015 #133

Fire away? Easy. Hissyspit Oct 2015 #234

Yes,that is my opinion. If he had his license he cadaverdog Oct 2015 #264

Ahhhhh, how simple life must be when you just make shit up to fit your world view tabasco Oct 2015 #299

I don't understand any of this. WillowTree Oct 2015 #142

Evidently the cop had pulled over many people for flashing him, so he knew his headlights Rex Oct 2015 #145

Yes, he tazed the kid on the ground. And what happened next? Kid got up and charged the Waldorf Oct 2015 #183

Some people will fight after being tased. It's called fight or flight. Especially people who have MillennialDem Oct 2015 #206

According to the cop who killed him. Did you watch the video? WHERE did this kid do as you claim? uppityperson Oct 2015 #230

Its in the link of the OP. Go to around 5:10 of the video. He's telling the guy to put his arms Waldorf Oct 2015 #240

I see no assault. I do see assumptions being made here, based on the shooter's report of the inciden uppityperson Oct 2015 #261

when is the last time you saw the police use their turn signals ? olddots Oct 2015 #144

Or when it is time to get off work, so they turn on the lights and rush through traffic to get Rex Oct 2015 #147

Wake up White people! ZX86 Oct 2015 #151

Again, take the guns away from local law enforcement. closeupready Oct 2015 #152

What gave that officer the idea he had the authority to kill someone just because JDPriestly Oct 2015 #160

He had that authority when the kid attacked the cop. Waldorf Oct 2015 #194

He didn't attack the cop at all or at least not until after he was tased and he was non-violent up MillennialDem Oct 2015 #205

I could not see the video well. Did the kid attack the officer? JDPriestly Oct 2015 #237

After refusing 7 times to show his d/l, insurance, etc., the cop ordered him out of the car. Waldorf Oct 2015 #241

The stop itself was withouot any provocation. The officer had already been flahsed because his JDPriestly Oct 2015 #242

If a cop pulls you over and you're driving, yeah you do have to show a license and registration. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #243

If the cop was so scared, why did he physically assault the kid rather than wait for backup? uppityperson Oct 2015 #262

This is one of those cases fadedrose Oct 2015 #166

Dumb kid, doesn't know how to deal with a wannabe killer. Darb Oct 2015 #170

I'm K&R'ing because this is horrific marym625 Oct 2015 #193

Really? snooper2 Oct 2015 #281

Any sane adult who watched the video would understand exactly who the "Players" ladjf Oct 2015 #195

No, his department has already cleared him. The boy's parents decided to sue after viewing the tblue37 Oct 2015 #287

Kicked and recommended! Enthusiast Oct 2015 #200

Sorry, that kid was an idiot, or had something really wrong mentally. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #201

You can't be serious brush Oct 2015 #221

Yes, im serious. At least for the first 10 minutes, the cop was being real patient. Warren DeMontague Oct 2015 #244

I disagree brush Oct 2015 #258

Great video. Thanks for sharing! DawgHouse Oct 2015 #265

Everybody interested in this case DLevine Oct 2015 #298

I have to agree with you PowerToThePeople Oct 2015 #282

Lesson learned; just do what the cop tells you. Question later. ErikJ Oct 2015 #202

Warning for what? damnedifIknow Oct 2015 #253

Women are often told that if traveling alone justiceischeap Oct 2015 #257

And what about this scenario? AngryOldDem Oct 2015 #263

Actually, I have read several reports of cops going ballistic if a woman drives to a safe place tblue37 Oct 2015 #288

Agree to comply for your safety, but the cop was clearly in the wrong to stop the kid sub.theory Oct 2015 #269

But the only problem is he couldve been an imposter cop. ErikJ Oct 2015 #270

Pigs Loki Oct 2015 #214

This goes far beyond race. romanic Oct 2015 #223

I feel completely ill. cyberswede Oct 2015 #236

� � � � � � � � � Alkene Oct 2015 #238

Police have the right to murder you. Whenever they decide they want to, alphafemale Oct 2015 #245

Death penalty for not boosting a cops ego is over the top. B Calm Oct 2015 #250

Interesting note Loki Oct 2015 #254

White kids lives matter ..... too! UCmeNdc Oct 2015 #267

For the edification of anyone who thinks the victim was somehow out of legal line: WinkyDink Oct 2015 #293

What Every Driver Must Know pintobean Oct 2015 #297

You're wasting your breath. Regardless of you (and COLGATE4 Oct 2015 #301