General Discussion

maggiesfarmer

(297 posts)

17. I'm open minded and willing to listen

Sun May 27, 2012, 10:49 AM

May 2012

please point me to the decades of research that concludes the teacher's capabilities are not a primary correlating factor to student success -- I will review it and read it carefully.

We're in agreement that not all data is relevant or good. is there some data in particular that you're suggesting we differ in terms of perceived relevance? please explain.

my teacher A/B description was not a scenario, it was language used to describe the point of why standardized testing can benefit in evaluating teachers. i never suggested that test scores alone should be used here, I believe I explicitly said "I don't think standardized tests are the ideal method for evaluating teachers and wouldn't advocate using them as the sole litmus test". I never encountered anyone who advocates for tests as a sole measure of teacher effectiveness.

thanks for the response and at least considering my points

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20-fold increase in standardized testing coming with Gates Foundation's "Common Core": [View all] HiPointDem May 2012 OP

My 8th grade daughter had her exboyfil May 2012 #1

That sounds like the same thing that teachers have always done. Honeycombe8 May 2012 #2

No, standardized test results didn't use to be used in calculating grades. They started as HiPointDem May 2012 #25

Your beef seems to be with the raw vs. curve method of grading...not the kind of test. nt Honeycombe8 May 2012 #26

In the post you're responding to, my beef is that standardized tests DIDN'T USE TO BE USED HiPointDem May 2012 #27

The irony is that Bill Gates himself could never even graduate from college. JDPriestly May 2012 #3

Presumably because he can figure out what works and what doesn't. Igel May 2012 #5

your comment that Gates was "unable" to finish college was more than a little disingenuous maggiesfarmer May 2012 #6

Whether you aren's smart enough or disciplined enough to finish college, or whether you don't have JDPriestly May 2012 #29

He didn't finish because his company got off the ground. It demanded all his time and Honeycombe8 May 2012 #75

He has plenty of time to complete his education now. He could set a good example for others. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #84

Silly suggestion. It's a far better example to use his money for charitable causes, which is what Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #104

Silly? Bettering oneself by education is never a silly venture no matter the age or net worth. Selatius Jun 2012 #145

Yes, it's silly to suggest that a successful philanthropist would be a better example to give that Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #148

If he didn't like what he found at Harvard, then he doesn't know what good JDPriestly Jun 2012 #156

No, some of us realized college is a scam, and left. boppers Jun 2012 #85

The purpose of an education is to provide you with knowledge you might JDPriestly Jun 2012 #157

Maybe that was the purposes of *your* education. boppers Jun 2012 #158

the 12 pound ball wins because it's mass provides more momentum against air resistance. maggiesfarmer Jun 2012 #161

LOL, "Unable to complete college"?? Like he was struggling?? He quit to start Microsoft! N-T Logical May 2012 #14

He wasn't unable, he didn't have to. He was born into the ruling class. Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #58

Not sure how. Igel May 2012 #4

So you're using extra tests DIAGNOSTICALLY rather than just for HIGH-STAKES ProgressiveEconomist May 2012 #19

So, with all of this new testing, when are teachers supposed to teach? MadHound May 2012 #7

When teachers don't know what they need to teach, what are they going to teach? boppers Jun 2012 #86

Nobody is saying stop all testing, MadHound Jun 2012 #111

What part of the "standard" is bothersome to you? boppers Jun 2012 #125

The fact that you can't fit a standard test to every child's learning style MadHound Jun 2012 #126

"a standard test" says it quite well. boppers Jun 2012 #131

Actually, having diverse assessment instruments is a good thing, MadHound Jun 2012 #149

You have missed the part where I agree with you. boppers Jun 2012 #160

I like the the work the Gates foundation is doing maggiesfarmer May 2012 #8

Your sig line says all I need to say. knitter4democracy May 2012 #9

I'm open minded and willing to listen maggiesfarmer May 2012 #17

I couldn't find that often-cited study on ERIC. knitter4democracy May 2012 #30

no question socioeconomic issues correlate to student success maggiesfarmer May 2012 #35

For crying out loud, you still aren't listening. knitter4democracy May 2012 #39

where did I say there were many ineffective teachers? maggiesfarmer May 2012 #53

Different states have different teaching requirements. knitter4democracy May 2012 #73

And you say you support the role of the teacher MadHound May 2012 #10

please supply the decades of academic studies that suggest the teacher is not a primary correlating maggiesfarmer May 2012 #18

Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear, MadHound May 2012 #23

Parents' income is the main factor correlating to student success, and always has been. HiPointDem May 2012 #24

I respectfully take issue with a few of your statements maggiesfarmer May 2012 #34

Excuse me, but first give me the research showing that tests of student achievement measure HiPointDem May 2012 #37

the study hasn't been done because there's enourmous resistance to gathering the data! maggiesfarmer May 2012 #38

So, there's no data but there's this great study? knitter4democracy May 2012 #40

the question is whether or not the tests scores can be correlated to teacher effectiveness? maggiesfarmer May 2012 #49

Standardized tests are designed to measure what kids know. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #50

that's the nice thing about statistics, we can identify and account for outliers maggiesfarmer May 2012 #51

But this data should not be used to measure teacher effectiveness proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #52

This. This is why. knitter4democracy May 2012 #71

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a student just last week. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #74

I was talking with a teen mom a couple of weeks back about that. knitter4democracy May 2012 #76

What makes me the angriest proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #83

Oh Jesus...this scares me... a la izquierda Jun 2012 #105

If only we had things like computers to normalize huge data sets... boppers Jun 2012 #87

Still too many variables. knitter4democracy Jun 2012 #106

First error: Paper. boppers Jun 2012 #122

There's nothing there showing that students' test scores are valid measures of teacher effectiveness HiPointDem May 2012 #56

no, the data correlates teacher performance to test scores. to get there does require maggiesfarmer May 2012 #60

The "data" doesn't correlate anything. The data *is* students' test score, and the pols HiPointDem May 2012 #62

we've gone through name calling and now profanity. discussion was nice when it stayed civil maggiesfarmer May 2012 #68

yeah, "shit science" is such a major breach of civility. a million pardons for my offense. HiPointDem May 2012 #77

Number one is a massive assumption. knitter4democracy May 2012 #72

Oh baloney. And no, the income gap *isn't* an outcome of education. You actually believe that HiPointDem May 2012 #55

I think I said it multiple time in this thread that I believe improving public education is a maggiesfarmer May 2012 #61

As more people got more education the income gap widened. More education doesn't do sucks HiPointDem May 2012 #63

"More education doesn't do sucks to close the income gap" maggiesfarmer May 2012 #65

in what field will these graduates use these marketable job skills? where are the jobs? HiPointDem May 2012 #66

actually, I agree with part of what you're saying. I don't think we have any reason to believe there maggiesfarmer May 2012 #67

Excuse me, peasants with a 5th-grade education do "electronics assembly" & "agriculture". HiPointDem May 2012 #78

This entire education "reform" movement is based on a false premise. kwassa May 2012 #80

/end thread (on Kwassa's post) ibegurpard Jun 2012 #96

Hear, hear! nt woo me with science Jun 2012 #97

+1 HiPointDem Jun 2012 #109

Given the wide difference in employment between high school and college graduates, mythology Jun 2012 #108

half of new grads are unemployed or underemployed. the UE rate just went up again. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #110

Introducing the Gates Foundation intern. Starry Messenger May 2012 #11

Nice insult with no facts. Why don't you put some work into countering what they said? Logical May 2012 #15

Geeze dude, it was a joke. Starry Messenger May 2012 #16

Gates gave away half his money & he's still the world's richest man on alternate years? Tell HiPointDem May 2012 #20

There is only one major change they want quaker bill May 2012 #31

that's new information to me. maggiesfarmer May 2012 #33

nice try quaker bill May 2012 #54

+1 proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #43

Gates makes money with his "charitable" foundation. Marr May 2012 #36

Bill Gates himself said said that the "class size doesn't matter" theory breaks down Nevernose May 2012 #47

If his foundation work is as good as his software. sendero May 2012 #64

So if I am rich, I can do brain surgery??? What expertise does he have in education? He dropped out adigal Jun 2012 #113

no, but I would be happy to let him fund research in brain surgery at a credible teaching hospital maggiesfarmer Jun 2012 #115

No, that is not the correct analogy. He is spouting off about things like adigal Jun 2012 #116

Gates isn't simply funding research. girl gone mad Jun 2012 #117

Bingo!! Thank you! n/t adigal Jun 2012 #154

This is the "charity" that Zuckerberg has pledged most of his money to... Romulox May 2012 #12

Warren Buffett Dokkie Jun 2012 #112

You know I"m a little confused about all this mzteris May 2012 #13

Higher stakes for schools, I think. Robb May 2012 #42

We really do need to cut back on testing proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #44

I used to take a test or two every day when I went to school. boppers Jun 2012 #88

There's a huge difference between standardized tests and periodic content review tests proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #102

Well, is the the problem *testing*, or not? boppers Jun 2012 #120

Standardized testing is the problem proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #129

Okay, can we discuss the differences? boppers Jun 2012 #133

And the results show that "rebooting" doesn't change anything. In fact, it makes things worse. HiPointDem May 2012 #57

I had yearly standardized testing in the 70's bhikkhu May 2012 #21

To all the people who say they had standardized testing as kids so what's the big deal: testing HiPointDem May 2012 #22

They also aren't the same tests. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #46

Yes, the tests have gotten much, much, better. boppers Jun 2012 #89

Your Broad Academy talking points won't work with me. proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #103

What's "Broad Academy"? boppers Jun 2012 #121

It's a training academy for superintendents proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #127

Hm. boppers Jun 2012 #132

I am sorry we shamed the selfish pig into becoming charitable. aquart May 2012 #28

+1. Helps fill the void of Madflor's absence. Mc Mike May 2012 #32

And Common Core will be a disaster proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #41

"Not one teacher helped write these standards." Robb May 2012 #45

Let me tell you about that 'collaboration'. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #48

Yes, they're lying. Through use of weasel phrases like "received initial feedback" & "collaboration" HiPointDem May 2012 #59

So, students are expected to learn at a rate we aren't yet teaching at? boppers Jun 2012 #90

They're expected to master content we currently don't teach proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #100

How does a teacher know it's not "developmentally appropriate" for a specific child? boppers Jun 2012 #118

A number of ways, MadHound Jun 2012 #124

I've only taught a few days. boppers Jun 2012 #128

And it shows, MadHound Jun 2012 #150

Yes, sheer hubris. boppers Jun 2012 #159

Teachers with backgrounds in child development understand what's developmentally appropriate proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #130

Why is that insane? boppers Jun 2012 #134

and where did you get this factoid from? kwassa Jun 2012 #138

Which part? boppers Jun 2012 #140

The second one. kwassa Jun 2012 #155

Honest question: Robb Jun 2012 #135

Flynn effect. boppers Jun 2012 #136

Education never stops changing kwassa Jun 2012 #139

How much will this all cost? MattBaggins May 2012 #69

Bingo proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #70

Half a billion for Pearson's current contract in Texas *alone*, apparently. pretty big money. HiPointDem May 2012 #82

How much per-student-per-year? boppers Jun 2012 #91

Better to ask how much it costs to develop, print, and ship a test. After that, it's pure profit. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #92

What kinds of morons still use print? boppers Jun 2012 #93

Pure profit. Probably in the neighborhood of a billion a year in the US. Provides a handful of HiPointDem Jun 2012 #94

*rage* boppers Jun 2012 #95

Why are you blaming teachers for what technology is used in schools. They don't have the power, HiPointDem Jun 2012 #107

Teachers are poor, helpless, drones with no power? boppers Jun 2012 #123

You are clueless. I have a friend who teaches in a low-income district in California. They don't HiPointDem Jun 2012 #141

Oh, so do you have computers, or not? boppers Jun 2012 #142

I'm not a teacher, I don't live in california, i'm unemployed and my computer is 5 years old. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #143

The worst testers are those involved with their subjects. boppers Jun 2012 #146

and if you don't know the students, you also bias the test, just in a different way. there is no HiPointDem Jun 2012 #147

Believe it or not, tests on paper are less expensive proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #101

It sounds more expensive to me, in the long run. boppers Jun 2012 #119

Isn't Jeb Bush part of the corporate testing scam, too? The only motive here is profit. DirkGently May 2012 #79

I think jeb spearheaded the increase in testing in florida. seems like there was something recent HiPointDem May 2012 #81

corporate takeover of the US fascisthunter Jun 2012 #98

DU Rec. woo me with science Jun 2012 #99

Gates has NO IDEA what he is doing in education any more than he is qualified to do brain surgery adigal Jun 2012 #114

Are you willing to teach a brain surgeon? boppers Jun 2012 #137

I would respond, but your straw man is too big adigal Jun 2012 #151

This makes no sense. WinkyDink Jun 2012 #153

Rmoney's buddies own the company - right? goclark Jun 2012 #144

Money, money, money, MO-NEY! WinkyDink Jun 2012 #152

The future of education is going to be digital, Gates is trying to monopolize that. joshcryer Jun 2012 #162