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In reply to the discussion: OK pacifists...what would you do about ISIS? [View all]riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)99. Starve the beast. Find the funding sources and CUT IT OFF!
These are a few things that will not solve the terrible and tangled web of causation and violence in which the attacks of Friday night were spawned. A 242-ship Navy will not stop one motivated murderous fanatic from emptying the clip of an AK-47 into the windows of a crowded restaurant. The F-35 fighter plane will not stop a group of motivated murderous fanatics from detonating bombs at a soccer match. A missile-defense shield in Poland will not stop a platoon of motivated murderous fanatics from opening up in a jammed concert hall, or taking hostages, or taking themselves out with suicide belts when the police break down the doors. American soldiers dying in the sands of Syria or Iraq will not stop the events like what happened in Paris from happening again because American soldiers dying in the sands of Syria or Iraq will be dying there in combat against only the most obvious physical manifestation of a deeper complex of ancient causes and ancient effects made worse by the reach of the modern technology of bloodshed and murder. Nobody's death is ever sacrifice enough for that.
...
Abandoning the Enlightenment values that produced democracy will not plumb the depths of the vestigial authoritarian impulse that resides in us all, the wish for kings, the desire for order, to be governed, and not to govern. Flexing and posturing and empty venting will not cure the deep sickness in the human spirit that leads people to slaughter the innocent in the middle of a weekend's laughter. The expression of bigotry and hatred will not solve the deep desperation in the human heart that leads people to kill their fellow human beings and then blow themselves up as a final act of murderous vengeance against those they perceive to be their enemies, seen and unseen, real and imagined. Tough talk in the context of what happened in Paris is as empty as a bell rung at the bottom of a well.
...
It's not like this is any kind of secret. In 2010, thanks to WikiLeaks, we learned that the State Department, under the direction of then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, knew full well where the money for foreign terrorism came from. It came from countries and not from a faith. It came from sovereign states and not from an organized religion. It came from politicians and dictators, not from clerics, at least not directly. It was paid to maintain a political and social order, not to promulgate a religious revival or to launch a religious war. Religion was the fuel, the ammonium nitrate and the diesel fuel. Authoritarian oligarchy built the bomb. As long as people are dying in Paris, nobody important is dying in Doha or Riyadh.
...
It's time for this to stop. It's time to be pitiless against the bankers and against the people who invest in murder to assure their own survival in power. Assets from these states should be frozen, all over the west. Money trails should be followed, wherever they lead. People should go to jail, in every country in the world. It should be done state-to-state. Stop funding the murder of our citizens and you can have your money back. Maybe. If we're satisfied that you'll stop doing it. And, it goes without saying, but we'll say it anyway not another bullet will be sold to you, let alone advanced warplanes, until this act gets cleaned up to our satisfaction. If that endangers your political position back home, that's your problem, not ours. You are no longer trusted allies. Complain, and your diplomats will be going home. Complain more loudly, and your diplomats will be investigated and, if necessary, detained. Retaliate, and you do not want to know what will happen, but it will done with cold, reasoned and, yes, pitiless calculation. It will not be a blind punch. You will not see it coming. It will not be an attack on your faith. It will be an attack on how you conduct your business as sovereign states in a world full of sovereign states.
...
Abandoning the Enlightenment values that produced democracy will not plumb the depths of the vestigial authoritarian impulse that resides in us all, the wish for kings, the desire for order, to be governed, and not to govern. Flexing and posturing and empty venting will not cure the deep sickness in the human spirit that leads people to slaughter the innocent in the middle of a weekend's laughter. The expression of bigotry and hatred will not solve the deep desperation in the human heart that leads people to kill their fellow human beings and then blow themselves up as a final act of murderous vengeance against those they perceive to be their enemies, seen and unseen, real and imagined. Tough talk in the context of what happened in Paris is as empty as a bell rung at the bottom of a well.
...
It's not like this is any kind of secret. In 2010, thanks to WikiLeaks, we learned that the State Department, under the direction of then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, knew full well where the money for foreign terrorism came from. It came from countries and not from a faith. It came from sovereign states and not from an organized religion. It came from politicians and dictators, not from clerics, at least not directly. It was paid to maintain a political and social order, not to promulgate a religious revival or to launch a religious war. Religion was the fuel, the ammonium nitrate and the diesel fuel. Authoritarian oligarchy built the bomb. As long as people are dying in Paris, nobody important is dying in Doha or Riyadh.
...
It's time for this to stop. It's time to be pitiless against the bankers and against the people who invest in murder to assure their own survival in power. Assets from these states should be frozen, all over the west. Money trails should be followed, wherever they lead. People should go to jail, in every country in the world. It should be done state-to-state. Stop funding the murder of our citizens and you can have your money back. Maybe. If we're satisfied that you'll stop doing it. And, it goes without saying, but we'll say it anyway not another bullet will be sold to you, let alone advanced warplanes, until this act gets cleaned up to our satisfaction. If that endangers your political position back home, that's your problem, not ours. You are no longer trusted allies. Complain, and your diplomats will be going home. Complain more loudly, and your diplomats will be investigated and, if necessary, detained. Retaliate, and you do not want to know what will happen, but it will done with cold, reasoned and, yes, pitiless calculation. It will not be a blind punch. You will not see it coming. It will not be an attack on your faith. It will be an attack on how you conduct your business as sovereign states in a world full of sovereign states.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39727/paris-attacks-middle-eastern-oligarchies/
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Im not a pacifist although I generally favor resolving disputes through non-violent means. I would
KingCharlemagne
Nov 2015
#6
Prosecute them, yes, but don't delude yourself that IS cares about human rights
Bad Thoughts
Nov 2015
#33
What is the root cause of ISIS? I would go back in time and fix that fucker of a problem.
Ed Suspicious
Nov 2015
#7
It was actually pretty stable under the Ottomans, who knew something about the people
geek tragedy
Nov 2015
#122
Post-colonial governments managed to combine the worst elements of tribalism
geek tragedy
Nov 2015
#126
What was the root cause of Jim Jones? Or the root cause of any band of apocalyptic crazies?
pnwmom
Nov 2015
#140
They have made a point of destroying what few "nice things" they could in Syria and Iraq.
Chan790
Nov 2015
#100
Translation: Now that we war hawks fucked it up yet again, what are you "pacifists" going to do to
Kip Humphrey
Nov 2015
#9
They're an apocalyptic Islamist (NOT Muslim, there is a difference) death cult.
Chan790
Nov 2015
#107
At this point, it's academic. The question is how to make the attacks stop...
backscatter712
Nov 2015
#137
I guess I'm the board's temporary Republican, because I want an overwhelmingly violent response.
DisgustipatedinCA
Nov 2015
#24
Being a Democrat doesn't mean sitting still while people kill all around you.
FLPanhandle
Nov 2015
#35
If pacifists had been in charge all along, as a European Jew, I wouldn't exist either. N.T.
Donald Ian Rankin
Nov 2015
#43
Indeed. It never stops disappointing me how often pacifists forget the lesson of Neville Chamberlain
Chan790
Nov 2015
#111
Infiltrators would have to take part in Daesh atrocities to succeed as infiltrators.
emulatorloo
Nov 2015
#93
I'm antiwar. Not a pacifist. But there are things that could be done though that pacifists would
think
Nov 2015
#36
That's all good, BUT none of that would deter Daesh from pursuing its stated goal of a caliphate.
Metric System
Nov 2015
#69
The list is things pacifists might agree with as asked for by the OP. Pacifism won't stop ISIS.
think
Nov 2015
#78
Cut our military budget in half, take care of our own people, jobs, families, infrastructure.
Crystalite
Nov 2015
#54
I would handle them like the international KKK, and incentivize governments to help within
Hoyt
Nov 2015
#58
Seriously? You don't think the entire US military has been trying for years to do just that? nt
Bigmack
Nov 2015
#60
Not sure I'm a pacifist but for sake of discussion let's say I am;
Dyedinthewoolliberal
Nov 2015
#73
China-Russia-North Korea all like your idea of the US unilateral disarmament.
EX500rider
Nov 2015
#146
Take the military budget and create a gazillion solar/wind energy jobs at home.
valerief
Nov 2015
#79
I am a pacifist. Been beaten up many times and never fought back. But that being said.
LiberalArkie
Nov 2015
#86
The First Step - Eliminate Neocons From The World Stage - HRC Must Withdraw As A Candidate
cantbeserious
Nov 2015
#105
First, I would recommend that we don't invade Iraq. Oh yeah, too fucking late. Some shitty ass
GoneFishin
Nov 2015
#121
Keep giving them our lunch money until they weary of beating us up for it
Generic Brad
Nov 2015
#128
I would look at what the U.S. did in response to 9-11, and then do the exact oppsosite.
tjwash
Nov 2015
#139
Simple, cut military spending by about three-quarters and bring everyone home.
L. Coyote
Nov 2015
#142