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MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
Tue Nov 17, 2015, 12:33 PM Nov 2015

Saying Islam has nothing to do with the Paris attacks... [View all]

Or that the terrorists that carried out the attacks are not "true" Muslims, is like saying that institutional racism doesn't exist, or that white privilege isn't real. And it should be treated as such, but it's not, even on DU, because it turns out something called religious privilege exists.

Quite like how right wing conservatives will equate any criticism of our societal structures or real problems as "reverse racism", many on here and certainly around the world equate criticism of Islam automatically with an ethnic or racial attack. Both are deflections from even aknowledging a problem exists.

And both are fed by privilege. The vast majority of the world is religious. No one wants to be associated with people who do bad things they disagree with in the name of their same religion. And, because the vast majority of people want to have their privilege without confronting troublesome issues within their own belief system, the idea that religions are by definition good, and any bad act is by definition not religious, is a wildly popular and accepted idea embraced most everywhere, as it is a great boon to anyone religious, as the vast majority of the world is.

This privilege is so widespread that liberals seem to exhibit almost as much as conservatives, if not more so. Especially as liberals want to believe in a world where everyone gets along, the idea of any "true" religion being inherently good is a tempting one. Religion has such a powerful and protected status, it's much easier to go along with the status quo and not challenge religious ideas, but instead simply redefine religion to fit whatever worldview a person holds.

This idea ignores fundamental problems in religious ideas.

Islam, as described in the Koran and Hadiths, says a lot of things which most here would fervently disagree. Many people define all the bad parts of these books out of their definition of Islam. But that's not how religion works. The bad ideas of Islam must be addressed, because many people do in fact take them to be true, and a lot of these ideas are very mainstream in the world as a result, with no challenge to their foundations, but instead efforts by liberals to redefine the religion rather than challenge the ideas, because of religion's power and privilege.

Few seem willing to question these bad parts because it ultimately leads to questioning the whole thing. And so many people are so scared at the idea of a religion not being true they will jump through as many mental hoops as needed to maintain their belief while discarding all the parts they disagree with. This is where the privilege of religion most stands out.

Religious privilege means being able to identify with a belief system that has a holy text which endorses bigotry, homophobia, genocide, misogyny, etc. and not expect anyone to think you actually subscribe to said beliefs, in fact, to be offended by anyone who would associate your relief system with the horrible proclamations made within your own holy texts. It means being able to flat out state that anyone of your same belief system who acts badly is simply not a "true" whatever.

This is where moderate believers uphold and support religious power and privilege, which only helps religious radicals like ISIS remain relevant elsewhere. After all, ISIS also believes quite a few Muslims aren't true Muslims, as anyone can use that idea to work to their advantage.

If you identify with a religion whose official dogma or text supports bigotry, homophobia, etc., think about why you continue to identify that way. Chances are, the power and privilege of religion will have a lot to do with it. Maybe you like the community or the opportunities provided to help their people. But again, if you continue to identify or even indirectly support a system that you fundamentally disagree with, question whether the privilege you are helping uphold is good for the world. Because I don't think it is.

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Where would you put the atheist that shot :Deah Barakat, Yusor Abu-Salha, Razan Abu-Salha in NC Truprogressive85 Nov 2015 #1
Atheism isn't a belief system... MellowDem Nov 2015 #2
terrorist can be have religious person or have no belief system Truprogressive85 Nov 2015 #3
What are you talking about? Your posts read as incoherent nonsense. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #6
Thanks. They are from my area and did quite a bit for humanity in their short time. mmonk Nov 2015 #14
Bravo! smirkymonkey Nov 2015 #4
Many of the same people who swarm attack posters hifiguy Nov 2015 #21
Proof that Bill Maher was leftynyc Nov 2015 #58
Who said religion had nothing to do with the Paris attacks? Iggo Nov 2015 #5
It's been said and, more frequently, implied, hifiguy Nov 2015 #22
The core problem with this analysis is that assumes that people el_bryanto Nov 2015 #7
I'm not seeing your argument tkmorris Nov 2015 #8
Well it's a longer discussion el_bryanto Nov 2015 #12
I think that makes sense... MellowDem Nov 2015 #15
Christianity, the Jewish and Islam are religions that have jwirr Nov 2015 #26
Read the rules... MellowDem Nov 2015 #9
But they do believe in other parts of it - right? el_bryanto Nov 2015 #10
They are identifying with it... MellowDem Nov 2015 #13
Yep - "Religious Privilege" is a lot like freedom of conscience. nt el_bryanto Nov 2015 #16
More like "freedom from criticism" MellowDem Nov 2015 #17
How are they free from criticism? el_bryanto Nov 2015 #18
As in by wider society.... MellowDem Nov 2015 #19
So Christians and Muslims should be treated as fascists and members of the KKK in your opinion? nt el_bryanto Nov 2015 #20
No, Christianity and Islam... MellowDem Nov 2015 #31
OK - but people who want to fit into normal society el_bryanto Nov 2015 #38
Thats the issue... MellowDem Nov 2015 #62
Thank - well stated. That makes it very clear. el_bryanto Nov 2015 #69
The reason religions face a lot of criticism is because they great everyone else as second class Lordquinton Nov 2015 #70
It's Mormon Church by the way. el_bryanto Nov 2015 #71
So you're fine with Religions treating others as second class Lordquinton Nov 2015 #72
I'm not fine with Religions's treating others as second class citizens el_bryanto Nov 2015 #73
Then adherence to a bigoted doctrine is an act that should be judged Lordquinton Nov 2015 #75
You don't really know me. el_bryanto Nov 2015 #76
How do you justify that with your church's doctrine? Lordquinton Nov 2015 #78
Well a few points el_bryanto Nov 2015 #79
Your church counts you as supporting it's hate agenda Lordquinton Nov 2015 #80
I reject that definition of religious privilege as it clearly encroaches on the right of people el_bryanto Nov 2015 #81
So you claim that the hate and bigotry is what defines religion? Lordquinton Nov 2015 #84
You really aren't making any sense here el_bryanto Nov 2015 #85
You are doing a lot of twisting Lordquinton Nov 2015 #86
I'm glad you don't want to turn that into persecution el_bryanto Nov 2015 #89
So you don't deny your privilege? Lordquinton Nov 2015 #90
Excommunication is more of a discussion for the Religion Room el_bryanto Nov 2015 #91
The point is that believers can shrug off responsilbity for the horrible snagglepuss Nov 2015 #43
I suppose they might also point out that they don't advocate those horrible parts el_bryanto Nov 2015 #55
How about their evidence-free beliefs be treated the same as any other? whatthehey Nov 2015 #24
So in a just society Religious believers would be ineligible to hold public office el_bryanto Nov 2015 #40
Are believers in Santa ineligible? whatthehey Nov 2015 #49
Thank you for clarifying. el_bryanto Nov 2015 #53
They are identifying with an idea that goes back to the 9th jwirr Nov 2015 #27
The "modern version"... MellowDem Nov 2015 #29
I was objecting to the broad brush used in the OP. There are jwirr Nov 2015 #30
These are present day problems... MellowDem Nov 2015 #33
You've lost me.Are you saying people are choosing their religion deliberately snagglepuss Nov 2015 #41
Excellent post. I have zero respect for Abraham's cruel, capricious, misogynist god Dems to Win Nov 2015 #11
To be a Liberal/Progressive minded person is to critique ALL ideologies Yavin4 Nov 2015 #23
Extremist fundamentalists pick and choose small bad bits ignoring the context uppityperson Nov 2015 #25
True, but the Moderates and Liberals do the same with the good bits. Its the same selective... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #28
I've no problem with people treating each other and the world with kindness uppityperson Nov 2015 #37
No but when each side is equally convinced that THEY are following the "true" word of god... trotsky Nov 2015 #47
ISIS is Mulsim and the KKK are Christian. What difference does that make. Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #32
You didn't read the OP... MellowDem Nov 2015 #34
Religion is whatever people say it is. DirkGently Nov 2015 #35
Criticism of religion is silenced... MellowDem Nov 2015 #36
We're criticizing religion right now. DirkGently Nov 2015 #42
Not in broader society... MellowDem Nov 2015 #64
There's this absurd idea that it's only "real" religion when it's nice. n/t Old Union Guy Nov 2015 #39
How about the only "acceptable" religion? DirkGently Nov 2015 #44
"when things get harsh or ugly, the bad ideas are still there" trotsky Nov 2015 #48
As someone agnostic102 Nov 2015 #45
Thank you for your perspective. smirkymonkey Nov 2015 #60
The importance of religion to terrorism is an important factor... lumberjack_jeff Nov 2015 #46
I think what we do about it... MellowDem Nov 2015 #65
Is like saying that patriotism had nothing to do with blowing up the Murrow Federal Building. pampango Nov 2015 #50
I would say that ISIL, Daesh, is a cult not a group of Muslims. nt BootinUp Nov 2015 #51
yes! agnostic102 Nov 2015 #54
Isis is to Islam as the Branch Davidians were to Christianity. bklyncowgirl Nov 2015 #57
A lot of Muslims would disagree with you... MellowDem Nov 2015 #66
#NotAllMen... nt Romulox Nov 2015 #52
"ISIL is not Islamic. No religion condones the killing of innocents." - Barack Obama mwrguy Nov 2015 #56
Mohammed was a warrior who slew innocent people in his snagglepuss Nov 2015 #63
Mohamed lived in the 7th century treestar Nov 2015 #88
Jesus not his apostles didn't engage in war. snagglepuss Nov 2015 #92
That is exactly what I'm talking about... MellowDem Nov 2015 #67
I certainly didn't define religion that way. BootinUp Nov 2015 #68
Were the Crusades Christian? Was the Inquisition Catholic? Marr Nov 2015 #83
Many progressives have a strange relationship with Islam Matrosov Nov 2015 #59
*This* smirkymonkey Nov 2015 #61
What you describe is rampant on DU Democat Nov 2015 #74
...is like saying Christianity has nothing to do with the acts by the KKK. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Nov 2015 #77
Many American liberals are thrown into a rhetorical tailspin by Islam. Marr Nov 2015 #82
Islam has a lot less separation of religion and state treestar Nov 2015 #87
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