General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

52. The machinery for both the Bay of Pigs AND Vietnam were already rolling when JFK took office.

Mon Nov 23, 2015, 04:10 AM

Nov 2015

The CIA went ahead with the Bay of Pigs even though JFK had told them he wouldn't be sending in air support. They thought they could stick him in a position where they would have to back up their anti-castro army. They also thought that the minute they landed, the Cuban people would rise up against Castro, greeting them as "liberators" (hmm, where have we heard that before?)

The Bay of Pigs debacle was squarely the fault of Allen Dulles, not JFK.

As for Vietnam, it is arguable that Kennedy could have figured out sooner where the whole thing was heading, but many make a fair case that he was leaning towards withdrawl and if he had made it into his 2nd term he would have ended US involvement instead of going "all in" with escalating it, as LBJ did.

Philandering is an issue between him and his wife, why what a President does as a consenting adult is the greater public's business didn't make any sense to me in 1998 and it still doesn't now.

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Why this lionization of JFK? [View all] Archae Nov 2015 OP

I was a little kid, my mom was crying and I didn't know why. hunter Nov 2015 #1

I was in an all girls Catholic school 4th grade class. Awknid Nov 2015 #9

Am I skeptical about the U.S.A. political machine? hunter Nov 2015 #49

JFK was a leader. Not a hired manager for the interests that put him in office. pa28 Nov 2015 #2

Was he really? Archae Nov 2015 #14

JFK: "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds," pa28 Nov 2015 #18

JFK's assasination brought a Democratic wave into Congress EndElectoral Nov 2015 #29

I don't have sources ready at hand, but most professional historians argue that JFK KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #66

And I have seen accounts that claim he had made the decision to withdraw dflprincess Nov 2015 #141

JFK mistrusted both the CIA and the generals he inherited from Eisenhower. Boomerproud Nov 2015 #134

Who's next to be thrown from the train? Scootaloo Nov 2015 #3

Its like the Chinese cultural revolution. Jesus Malverde Nov 2015 #40

FDR has gone under the wheels, hifiguy Nov 2015 #89

That's what I was thinking Scootaloo Nov 2015 #92

I've been here for ten years. hifiguy Nov 2015 #95

Think about who benefits - TBF Nov 2015 #118

That was my first question hifiguy Nov 2015 #121

+10 million!!!! Nt riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #152

You actually have to GP6971 Nov 2015 #4

And the Bay of Pigs Operation was okayed by Ike a year before it happened. dflprincess Nov 2015 #5

He knew this....factoid 1 & 2 are not true and jaysunb Nov 2015 #8

my biggest issue with the poster of this thread CatWoman Nov 2015 #149

Things that make you go, Hmmmm jaysunb Nov 2015 #150

And that makes you discount everything he says? TBF Nov 2015 #155

I don't believe I was talking to you CatWoman Nov 2015 #156

You're on a message board my dear - TBF Nov 2015 #157

regardless CatWoman Nov 2015 #159

lol TBF Nov 2015 #160

FDR had women on the side as well Major Nikon Nov 2015 #30

the odd thing there is treestar Nov 2015 #57

JFK was a complicated individual... Sickly and whathehell Nov 2015 #84

What Democrat would even consider getting huffy about jfk's private life? So odd! Thanks. n/t Judi Lynn Nov 2015 #35

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? hifiguy Nov 2015 #96

He certainly did. former9thward Nov 2015 #36

We made him (and that family) that. ScreamingMeemie Nov 2015 #39

Camelot is about adultery. ucrdem Nov 2015 #42

It's about a lot more than adultery.. whathehell Nov 2015 #77

You mean, like the philandering between Guinevere and Lancelot? nt raccoon Nov 2015 #63

Factually incorrect. H2O Man Nov 2015 #81

Got evidence that JFK set it up? Kingofalldems Nov 2015 #94

He did not need to set it up. He had a fawning media to do that. former9thward Nov 2015 #114

Your own link title contradicts your post. Kingofalldems Nov 2015 #115

If you stay post-WWII you have to go back to Truman HereSince1628 Nov 2015 #13

Ahh no. former9thward Nov 2015 #34

Kennedy signed NSAM 263 on October 11, 1963 Art_from_Ark Nov 2015 #88

Had JFK lived and been re-elected hifiguy Nov 2015 #97

In fairness, Truman. He gave de Gaulle the green light to reoccupy Vietnam, in return KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #67

So, tell me, TheCowsCameHome Nov 2015 #6

He was the second to last American statesman Facility Inspector Nov 2015 #7

the penultimate statesman! bettyellen Nov 2015 #11

I love an opportunity to use that word correctly. ;) n/t X_Digger Nov 2015 #142

because all Dems have sucked since. I read it hear on DU.... from people who voted for Reagan and bettyellen Nov 2015 #10

No doubt you heard that at DU from a right-wing troll trying to pass as a Democrat. n/t Judi Lynn Nov 2015 #37

there are manny of them here. too numerous to count. bettyellen Nov 2015 #93

I gave up trying to count. hifiguy Nov 2015 #98

don't you hate those iPad typos? Hekate Nov 2015 #99

Viet Nam was NOT JFK's war. It was LBJ's war. 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #12

In 1959 gladium et scutum Nov 2015 #60

exactly! LBJ's war. n/t 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #80

Don't argue that a bit, but gladium et scutum Nov 2015 #90

16,000 is a handful IMHO, compared to Johnson's 543,482, which was the peak troop strength in 1969. 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #128

The Numbers in 1963 gladium et scutum Nov 2015 #133

JFK wasn't just 'considering' troop level reductions, he'd just signed NSAM-263 99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #138

Thanks for the info on the NSAM, n/t gladium et scutum Nov 2015 #139

It was the Establishment War, begun by Truman who failed to honor FDR's promise to Ho Chi Minh. Zen Democrat Nov 2015 #151

"The secret of immortality," wrote G.B. Shaw, "is knowing when to die." . . . Journeyman Nov 2015 #15

Your post is positively elegiac. My sincerest KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #69

Because he knew Dallas was "nut country" and he went there anyway. ucrdem Nov 2015 #16

Seldom has one family sacrificed more for this nation than the KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #70

You really don't know shit, do you. edhopper Nov 2015 #17

Hit and run. Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #73

I noticed that edhopper Nov 2015 #74

You don't seem to know a lot about JFK. milestogo Nov 2015 #19

He can be admired on merits. saltpoint Nov 2015 #20

Why this lionization of Bernie? pnwmom Nov 2015 #21

Maybe it has something to do with what they stand for hifiguy Nov 2015 #101

Or HRC? n/t tazkcmo Nov 2015 #130

Post removed Post removed Nov 2015 #22

Lemay would have been an international war criminal if it werent for the US nuking Japan 951-Riverside Nov 2015 #25

Thanks 951 reposting to the asian group. Jesus Malverde Nov 2015 #43

I would agree. If Nixon had been in the White House, probably most of us wouldn't be here. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #53

Because he was born rich BainsBane Nov 2015 #23

re imperialistic activities abroad ... ucrdem Nov 2015 #24

Based on his speeches? BainsBane Nov 2015 #31

He didn't get killed for his speeches. nt ucrdem Nov 2015 #32

You need to read about the American University speech hifiguy Nov 2015 #102

Absolutely, an astonishing, blazing, game-changing speech, and here it is ... ucrdem Nov 2015 #137

The missile crisis and that speech hifiguy Nov 2015 #144

That and his negoitating us out of the Cuban Missile Crisis. dflprincess Nov 2015 #140

Lowering taxes 1939 Nov 2015 #59

FFS melman Nov 2015 #33

Sorry. I understand your frustration BainsBane Nov 2015 #82

and his looks don't hurt treestar Nov 2015 #58

You oddly neglect the several women in Congress whose wealth is enormous, they are not unacceptable Bluenorthwest Nov 2015 #61

My rep Anna Eshoo (D-CA18) is loaded as well KamaAina Nov 2015 #85

Evidently Jim Crow rich boy sent the 1964 Civil Rights Act to Congress: ucrdem Nov 2015 #147

that passed because of LBJ BainsBane Nov 2015 #153

The legislation was submitted by JFK in June 1963. Not LBJ. ucrdem Nov 2015 #154

"Lionization?" Really?? madamesilverspurs Nov 2015 #26

Bay of Pigs was Eisenhower It's exactly why JFK listened only to RFK about Cuba. merrily Nov 2015 #27

Very good piece from saltpoint Nov 2015 #28

A Democrat wouldn't post this. Why not take it to a right-wing site? n/t Judi Lynn Nov 2015 #38

That's silly. bigwillq Nov 2015 #65

Character Assassin Octafish Nov 2015 #75

Yes, because the same old same old accusations, innuendos and discredited theories get repeated. Archae Nov 2015 #124

You had to be there. Disgusting. Hekate Nov 2015 #41

:banghead: WillyT Nov 2015 #44

You act like it makes you sad or something. Rex Nov 2015 #45

The pain of Vietnam, Watergate, and everything after MFrohike Nov 2015 #46

Your thoughtful post is a mmini-masterpiece. Really powerful KingCharlemagne Nov 2015 #71

You ought to start a thread with this. Right on target. nt raccoon Nov 2015 #83

I really like what you said. Archae Nov 2015 #126

Nice timing, ace. alcibiades_mystery Nov 2015 #47

People, beware. snot Nov 2015 #48

He was the President and was murdered while serving Boudica the Lyoness Nov 2015 #50

You can choose to be a shallow Penn and Teller lucrative sort of Las Vegas HBO skeptic... hunter Nov 2015 #51

The machinery for both the Bay of Pigs AND Vietnam were already rolling when JFK took office. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #52

One had to be there. The youthfulness, the "vigah." Oh, and the BoP was from the previous Admin. WinkyDink Nov 2015 #54

That was the baby of the CIA, the Mafia and one hifiguy Nov 2015 #103

And thus, 11/22/63. WinkyDink Nov 2015 #135

I think the correct question is: "Why the lionization of Ronald Reagan?" DON'T YOU? WinkyDink Nov 2015 #55

at least he wasn't a troll uhnope Nov 2015 #56

OP, you seem to have fallen to the influence of the conservative think tank destruction of JFK. Todays_Illusion Nov 2015 #62

Sometimes when a person dies/is murdered when they're young, they're practically canonized. raccoon Nov 2015 #64

I don't lionize him (or any leader) but I do acknowledge and appreciate deutsey Nov 2015 #68

He also kept the world from being annialated Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #72

Irrelevant to the haters hifiguy Nov 2015 #100

Me? Le Taz Hot Nov 2015 #104

LOL. hifiguy Nov 2015 #105

BTW, if and when you come across a candidate for POTUS who is not human and does not make mistakes, merrily Nov 2015 #76

He also stopped WWIII edhopper Nov 2015 #78

By stopping World War III, do you mean the Cuban missle crisis? I posted about that upthread. merrily Nov 2015 #79

why this need to belittle achievements of liberals? i get that they are not perfect La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2015 #86

Strip everything named after him ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2015 #87

Seriously? hifiguy Nov 2015 #91

Bingo! hifiguy nails it here. longship Nov 2015 #106

Khrushchev had some very revealing comments hifiguy Nov 2015 #107

That is the way I understood it. longship Nov 2015 #108

Khrushchev admitted he broke down in tears hifiguy Nov 2015 #109

Yup! That's about right. longship Nov 2015 #111

Plus, then there was John Scali and Alexandr Fomin. longship Nov 2015 #146

Not only accurate but... WiffenPoof Nov 2015 #112

Totally agree CajunBlazer Nov 2015 #119

As Much As My Heart... WiffenPoof Nov 2015 #110

Kennedy's Alliance for Progress improved relations with Latin America Art_from_Ark Nov 2015 #113

And oh how United Fruit and the Rockefeller family hifiguy Nov 2015 #116

That's probably why Nixon appointed Nelson Rockefeller to a commission Art_from_Ark Nov 2015 #117

But of course. hifiguy Nov 2015 #120

You just had to be there. CajunBlazer Nov 2015 #123

I was 7 and in third grade hifiguy Nov 2015 #125

I thought the Walker family (as in George Herber Walker Bush) had something to do with United Fruit? dflprincess Nov 2015 #143

I just want to add something about JFK DaveT Nov 2015 #122

He had more character and courage than anybody on this forum, that is for sure. randys1 Nov 2015 #127

He put a man on the Moon and kept us from getting blown up during the Cuban Missile Crisis. (eom) StevieM Nov 2015 #129

He was a WWII vet into his life and raising kids underpants Nov 2015 #131

You just had to be there CajunBlazer Nov 2015 #132

EXACTLY. Like when some ask, "What was so great about the Beatles?" YJHTBT. They arrived only 3 WinkyDink Nov 2015 #136

Because he was a charismatic, telegenic, idealistic, and young Democratic President YoungDemCA Nov 2015 #145

Jeeps, where do you begin? MrMickeysMom Nov 2015 #148

When was JFK not celebrated? TBF Nov 2015 #158