General Discussion

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)

98. We can and do "cherry pick" which parts of a culture we like or not

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:38 PM

Nov 2015

or which parts fit in western societies and which do not. And we have outlawed religious and cultural practices we find objectionable.

FGM is cultural in many parts of African and Arabian societies and outlawed in western societies.

Nudity is cultural in many parts of African and Aboriginal societies, outlawed in the west.

We do tell women what they can wear in public (I can't testify topless in court as a woman for example) and we make value judgements about religious dictums we want to see in our public squares every day (no ceremonial butchering of animals in Central Park).

Why this misogynistic garment, deliberately designed to erase women from society, somehow deserves special hands-off treatment I do not understand.

This has nothing to do with being a republican and everything to do with being a progressive feminist committed to equal rights for women.

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Culture shock - woman in black Niqab at grocery store [View all] packman Nov 2015 OP

And so begins the great conflict of the time. Shandris Nov 2015 #1

"Muslim culture" is not a monolith. There's all kinds of "Muslim culture" out there. MADem Nov 2015 #5

Thank you uppityperson Nov 2015 #8

Anytime! MADem Nov 2015 #28

Culture by definition isn't a monolith. Nothing comprised of a group of individuals can be... Shandris Nov 2015 #11

It was heartening to see shots of a protest from Turkey yesterday Retrograde Nov 2015 #15

Modesty is a relative term. In the Shah's Iran, and in Saddam's Iraq, there were no scarves MADem Nov 2015 #17

I'm quite sure they would like us to leave our vaginas... 3catwoman3 Nov 2015 #101

Just ask these women... Tanuki Nov 2015 #62

This message was self-deleted by its author marmar Dec 2015 #137

Last year I went with my family to universal studios in Los Angeles in August kimbutgar Nov 2015 #2

Good point made about what may be under. Hortensis Nov 2015 #36

Many are and do -- and others are not happy and feel they have no choice. pnwmom Nov 2015 #63

Certainly. But I still don't insult strange women by assuming Hortensis Nov 2015 #81

That's the whole point of the burka & niqab, even hijab. vaberella Dec 2015 #145

Chapel veils (or even a Kleenex) ScreamingMeemie Nov 2015 #3

Not anything like a full burqa every time you leave the house nt riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #4

I am simply reminiscing with another DUer. Thanks for understanding that. nt ScreamingMeemie Nov 2015 #7

I understand. I tried to keep my comment neutral, no snark riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #9

Thanks! ScreamingMeemie Nov 2015 #10

Kleenex on the head always seemed... 3catwoman3 Nov 2015 #102

Right? I mean why couldn't we just confess to being veil-less heathens on Saturday? ScreamingMeemie Nov 2015 #107

It's a tough choice for people from those cultures LittleBlue Nov 2015 #6

That's assuming they have a choice at all. davidn3600 Nov 2015 #25

I see two or three a day alcibiades_mystery Nov 2015 #12

I also see two or three a day. I'm not used to it. Matariki Dec 2015 #122

Damn any culture that considers itself entitled to pass judgment on entire peoples BainsBane Nov 2015 #13

We agree on something. n/t Comrade Grumpy Nov 2015 #16

There's hijab, though, and there's HIJAB. A burqa is a very different thing from scarf/manteau. MADem Nov 2015 #20

They are all forms of veiling BainsBane Nov 2015 #24

People stare at niqabs in Tehran! Subtly, of course--but they get attention. MADem Nov 2015 #85

as a great purveyor of woman's rights I would assume you know they really don't have a "choice" snooper2 Nov 2015 #89

Well, duh. Who would walk around in a blanket when it's ninety plus degrees if they had a choice? MADem Dec 2015 #150

This is true ismnotwasm Dec 2015 #147

Veiling women's faces and hair and swathing them in robes has a long history in the West, too: tblue37 Nov 2015 #22

Very true. Kath1 Nov 2015 #52

I've worked with a lot of Iranians in the US GummyBearz Nov 2015 #79

That has been my experience also. Kath1 Nov 2015 #80

It's the same difference between 'moderate' Christians and Fundamentalists Matariki Dec 2015 #157

excellent post NJCher Nov 2015 #110

You are welcome. nt tblue37 Dec 2015 #111

None of that is remotely like covering a person's humanity head to toe Matariki Dec 2015 #155

Oh, I hope someday to be worthy to even walk in your shadow packman Nov 2015 #33

Nailed it. GoneOffShore Nov 2015 #35

Oh yeah - What you said. Fall on the sword constantly. nt. Juicy_Bellows Nov 2015 #73

How about passing judgment on -individual- people for how they dress? Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #34

This. nt msanthrope Dec 2015 #113

Yet you had a problem with the Femen women. polly7 Nov 2015 #41

Yes... not very consistent. /nt Marr Nov 2015 #61

It was extremely unsettling to me the first time I saw it. I suddenly realized that the burqa pnwmom Nov 2015 #64

We could always revisit the days of the Shan of Iran BainsBane Nov 2015 #67

Every day there are US women who are abused by their family members. pnwmom Nov 2015 #68

There are women abused in the US who aren't Muslim BainsBane Nov 2015 #70

Wow. cwydro Nov 2015 #71

I object to women being abused and I think requiring a woman to wear a burqa pnwmom Nov 2015 #72

I agree with you treestar Dec 2015 #139

So intolerance is bad? Like intolerance for women Arugula Latte Nov 2015 #82

*crickets* Coventina Nov 2015 #96

All this time, it seemed like you were a feminist or at least that you supported equality for women. xocet Nov 2015 #106

Perhaps you should listen BainsBane Dec 2015 #143

Perhaps you should go to Egypt, Jordan or elsewhere in the ME and learn something firsthand. xocet Dec 2015 #153

You're making good points Matariki Dec 2015 #154

Point taken. n/t xocet Dec 2015 #163

Well gosh dern it, Sillyfilly Dec 2015 #133

packman condemned the culture...not the people True Earthling Dec 2015 #136

Culture is not separate from people BainsBane Dec 2015 #142

People are born with culture? True Earthling Dec 2015 #160

I see groups of women out walking with their children in Niqabs ismnotwasm Dec 2015 #146

I've seen a woman in a niqabs at the local grocery store as well, no male escort though... Humanist_Activist Nov 2015 #14

one notices that men are not shamed into covering their heads and bodies nt msongs Nov 2015 #18

Exactly. Tipperary Nov 2015 #19

I'd like to force the ulema into manteau and scarf during summer in Teheran, and MADem Nov 2015 #21

And that's what it comes down to for me. It's patriarchal crap that needs to stop. Coventina Nov 2015 #23

+1000 smirkymonkey Nov 2015 #49

It's not even religious riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #26

This burns me up. cwydro Nov 2015 #29

Agreed. It is extremely dehumanizing, IMO. hifiguy Nov 2015 #32

It is designed to turn women into shadows. Invisible. n/t pnwmom Dec 2015 #132

And faces and wrists Matariki Dec 2015 #156

Are you sure it wasn't a burqa? thereismore Nov 2015 #27

I had the same visceral experience the first time I saw a woman in a burqa. pnwmom Nov 2015 #30

I don't know. Seems like the men are insecure that they actually do the same thing as some... BlueJazz Nov 2015 #31

I don't really care what anybody is required to wear/not wear in their own church CanonRay Nov 2015 #37

I've only seen that once LiberalElite Nov 2015 #38

I saw it just this last year leftynyc Nov 2015 #93

I've seen some muslim women wearing the niqab around where I live. romanic Nov 2015 #39

keep in mind DonCoquixote Nov 2015 #40

Ah, sorry I didn't clarify packman Nov 2015 #42

actually DonCoquixote Nov 2015 #43

He said it was a niqab in the OP riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #44

Yes, that is my observation as well. nt Hekate Nov 2015 #66

I have seen women totally covered a few times in Los Angeles and canada Liberal_in_LA Nov 2015 #45

Though when I see them at Nordstroms buying jewelry flamingdem Nov 2015 #60

I know a woman who wears a Niquab gollygee Nov 2015 #46

Because a headscarf is totally innocuous leftynyc Nov 2015 #94

Obviously hijab and niqab are different, but... LoveIsNow Nov 2015 #47

Nun' s habits from not too long ago: MineralMan Nov 2015 #48

I'll bet those women pictured had much more of a choice than the typical woman Coventina Nov 2015 #58

I remember those from my childhood. Oddly enough, laywomen's dress in the Middle Ages was similar... Hekate Nov 2015 #65

Those women chose that life and that "costume." cwydro Nov 2015 #69

I'm sorry, whatever the reason, whatever the politics smirkymonkey Nov 2015 #50

I'm all for people wearing what they want but Skittles Nov 2015 #51

I see them from time to time here in north central NM Warpy Nov 2015 #53

I'm not Catholic. Is there any reasonable explanation... 3catwoman3 Nov 2015 #103

Middle Eastern cultures have always had a thing about women's hair Warpy Nov 2015 #104

"...so distracting to males." 3catwoman3 Nov 2015 #105

It's more that male privilege says they shouldn't have to bother Warpy Nov 2015 #108

This message was self-deleted by its author jeff47 Dec 2015 #158

Was she from Africa? leftyladyfrommo Nov 2015 #54

when they're standing with a guy wearing a tank top, shorts and flip-flops Skittles Nov 2015 #55

Wow leftyladyfrommo Nov 2015 #75

"her choice" Skittles Nov 2015 #84

I don't know. leftyladyfrommo Nov 2015 #86

Living in NYC I see Niqab's once in a while and it still is a bit unsettling. stevenleser Nov 2015 #56

I'm a feminist, not a multi-culturalist. I wouldn't like seeing that in my town. Dems to Win Nov 2015 #57

Thanks for your honesty flamingdem Nov 2015 #59

I know two women who wear Niqaab. Recursion Nov 2015 #74

Think a moment about what you expected me to do? packman Nov 2015 #76

Do you feel that about all heterosexual couples, or just ones dressed like that? Recursion Nov 2015 #77

Please - just go away packman Nov 2015 #78

That happened to me in Jersey City years ago KamaAina Nov 2015 #83

You actually yelled at a woman based on her clothing? Recursion Nov 2015 #87

Good heavens, no. I merely thought about it. KamaAina Nov 2015 #92

It's unfortunate that our instinct might be to tell her to dress differently... Orsino Nov 2015 #88

It's like a cage for women Aria36 Nov 2015 #90

Interesting responses. Daniel537 Nov 2015 #91

Or, you can vote Republican. packman Nov 2015 #95

I call BS on that. In such couples, the men are ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS dressed in Western clothes Coventina Nov 2015 #97

We can and do "cherry pick" which parts of a culture we like or not riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #98

As is covering your face in public. Matariki Dec 2015 #130

Univ of Missouri professor attacks female teen relative for not wearing hijab. riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #99

Glad he was arrested for child abuse. Good lesson for the asshole. Matariki Dec 2015 #131

kicking..... Coventina Nov 2015 #100

I still wonder why is the niqab/hijab so much more common ericson00 Nov 2015 #109

I guess it depends on how she feels about it. dilby Dec 2015 #112

And you don't see the difference between a wig and a garment that erases an entire identity? Coventina Dec 2015 #114

Are they both not worn for the same reason? dilby Dec 2015 #116

No, not at all. A wig covers one thing: hair. A niqab erases an entire person. Coventina Dec 2015 #117

Orthodox Jewish women wear it for one reason. dilby Dec 2015 #118

The problem is that the niqab does not allow women to be "free" even if they choose to wear it. Coventina Dec 2015 #120

+1 Matariki Dec 2015 #125

Thank you. Coventina Dec 2015 #126

So you want to remove it from a woman against her will. dilby Dec 2015 #134

If she is choosing to live here, in the US, yes. She needs to leave the bronze-age behind. Coventina Dec 2015 #135

Some places in the US it's against the law to go about in a mask Matariki Dec 2015 #159

Not exactly MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #152

Don't let some posters beat you up for this... culture shock is a 2 way street GummyBearz Dec 2015 #115

Tehran in the 60s. Before the Fundamentalists took over Matariki Dec 2015 #129

I've been arguing this point for years. sibelian Dec 2015 #119

A handful of women in my neighborhood wear them Matariki Dec 2015 #121

give everyone a break olddots Dec 2015 #123

I fly in and out of Paris and London a lot, so I'm used top seeing that DFW Dec 2015 #124

Wearing a head covering in church?...Jewish men wear yarmulkes in synagogue, hardly comparable whathehell Dec 2015 #127

You can't tell me that whole construct doesn't fuck some of these men up profoundly BeyondGeography Dec 2015 #128

Living in southeast Michigan, which has the largest Muslim American population.... marmar Dec 2015 #138

you must lead a very cloistered life. nt La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2015 #140

Not true - packman Dec 2015 #141

Your statement just sends a level of disgust in me. vaberella Dec 2015 #144

+1000 ismnotwasm Dec 2015 #148

"sends a level of disgust in me" packman Dec 2015 #161

"slight" vaberella Dec 2015 #164

The Land of the Free (???) and Home of the Brave(???). Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2015 #149

Head covering MosheFeingold Dec 2015 #151

I agree with you completely get the red out Dec 2015 #162

I encountered a scenario like that one summer day at a grocery store in southern Vermont. Vinca Dec 2015 #165