General Discussion

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)

7. If the framers of the federal constitution intended a qualified collective right..

Sun Dec 6, 2015, 11:21 AM

Dec 2015

.. why did those same framers go back to their respective states and protect an individual right?

[div class='excerpt']The present-day Pennsylvania Constitution, using language adopted in 1790, declares: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

Vermont: Adopted in 1777, the Vermont Constitution closely tracks the Pennsylvania Constitution. It states "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.."

Kentucky: The 1792 Kentucky constitution was nearly contemporaneous with the Second Amendment, which was ratified in 1791. Kentucky declared: "That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State, shall not be questioned."

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Supreme Court Justice Ruth Ginsburg on the Second Amendment (and Heller a bit) [View all] Photographer Dec 2015 OP

As do I. Chan790 Dec 2015 #1

SCOTUS did agree with you up until 2008's ridiculous 5-4 Heller decision. SunSeeker Dec 2015 #57

Also to note, Justice Bader-Ginsberg and Justice Breyer are President Bill Clinton appointees. BlueCaliDem Dec 2015 #87

I so agree. nt SunSeeker Dec 2015 #95

Not true. former9thward Dec 2015 #121

You are wrong, former9thward. Stevens cites the cases in his Heller dissent. SunSeeker Dec 2015 #122

That is not what it says. former9thward Dec 2015 #124

Miller was good precedent, as were the other cases Stevens cited. SunSeeker Dec 2015 #128

It is really disappointing to see someone former9thward Dec 2015 #140

Preferring the progressive--and correct--interpretation of the 2A is not "attacking" it. SunSeeker Dec 2015 #141

Actually I am mouthing Madison's argument. former9thward Dec 2015 #147

Bullshit. Madison could not have imagined what gun nuts would do to the 2A. nt SunSeeker Dec 2015 #162

Miller was about sawed-off shotguns, not automatic weapons jmowreader Dec 2015 #143

You are correct. former9thward Dec 2015 #148

Actually, Miller died before his case came before the court GGJohn Dec 2015 #153

Regardless of what she believes, the proper interpretation ot the constitution is... MohRokTah Dec 2015 #2

And that can change if people vote in presidents who want gun control. boston bean Dec 2015 #6

Any presidential candidate who promises to ban guns will lose. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #8

Who has suggested such a thing? boston bean Dec 2015 #9

Read DU, it's what many supporters of all the candidates want. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #12

Little ole me is causing you to question something so important? boston bean Dec 2015 #14

You and other DUers who want to ban guns. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #16

I want to see a ban on semi auto guns, that allow boston bean Dec 2015 #17

Nope, it does not sit well with me. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #21

It won't be unconstitutional once we get a good ruling. boston bean Dec 2015 #23

You'll never get the ruling you want. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #24

So sayeth you. You will be very suprised one day. boston bean Dec 2015 #26

And when, not if, but when you don't get your ruling, GGJohn Dec 2015 #29

No matter how long it takes, I won't ever say I am wrong on this. boston bean Dec 2015 #31

"Gay marriage bans will never be ruled unconstitutional" MillennialDem Dec 2015 #88

You are comparing apples to horse shoes. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #90

I know they're not the same thing, but a more favorable supreme court will likely MillennialDem Dec 2015 #91

Kagan wouldn't MohRokTah Dec 2015 #94

I read DU every day and have never seen anyone advocating for take all guns. lark Dec 2015 #45

You must have not read about half the anti-gun threads over the past two days, then. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #47

Where? lark Dec 2015 #49

Here: MohRokTah Dec 2015 #52

Nope, that's not what you said or what I asked for. lark Dec 2015 #62

Here you go- feel free to move the goal posts again. ;) X_Digger Dec 2015 #76

I recommend you improve your reading comprehension skills. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #79

Okey doakey, here's another MohRokTah Dec 2015 #116

Why are you here? rockfordfile Dec 2015 #133

Who aare you to question why I am here? MohRokTah Dec 2015 #136

This message was self-deleted by its author GGJohn Dec 2015 #154

OK, you got me. lark Dec 2015 #144

It's more than one MohRokTah Dec 2015 #145

I read here too. lark Dec 2015 #146

Not one of those called for banning guns. Try again. Squinch Dec 2015 #73

All of them did. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #75

None of them did. Squinch Dec 2015 #78

Well I guess I will say it. I would like something like what Australia did about weapons LiberalArkie Dec 2015 #55

ok, if we have lancer78 Dec 2015 #159

So for me to be a patriot, I have to give up my firearms? GGJohn Dec 2015 #161

Revolvers are 400 year old technology? A Simple Game Dec 2015 #56

The oldest revolver still existing was manufactured in 1597. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #60

I stand corrected, maybe I should take my own advice. A Simple Game Dec 2015 #81

Please, their have been multiple calls to ban all guns in multiple threads. EX500rider Dec 2015 #54

Boston, I have the answer to this. There is an interesting phenomenon that I have deciphered: Squinch Dec 2015 #67

"gunners" I think do have a mental problem. rockfordfile Dec 2015 #134

Wow!!! GGJohn Dec 2015 #155

But aren't you glad she said it? nt ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2015 #19

No. It decreases my respect for her. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #22

It increases my respect for her. But at least you're on record: YOU DO NOT RESPECT JUSTICE GINSBURG. ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2015 #25

I love it when grabbers try to put words in my mouth. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #27

I'm not a "grabber". You should pay better attention. nt ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2015 #30

I disagree. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #33

So you think you can decide for me what my stance is on an issue? I have never said a single word.. ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2015 #34

You decided what my stance on an issue was, so turnabout is fair play. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #36

Mo on Ginsburg: "It decreases my respect for her." Tell us how much you respect her. nt ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2015 #40

Of all the SCOTUS justices, I respected her the most... MohRokTah Dec 2015 #41

anyone who isn't a gun humper is considered a "gun grabber" Skittles Dec 2015 #123

Which is why we need to change the majority. We can end this. morningfog Dec 2015 #59

That will win votes for the Democratic nominee. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #61

You don't support a liberal majority in the SC? Noted. morningfog Dec 2015 #63

I do not support a majority that would ignore the second amendment MohRokTah Dec 2015 #72

So you believe Dredd Scott was the proper interpretation of the Constitution? Squinch Dec 2015 #83

By the constitution, the proper interpretation of the constitution is ALWAYS... MohRokTah Dec 2015 #86

So you believe Dredd Scott was the proper interpretation of the Constitution? Squinch Dec 2015 #89

See my prior post. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #92

So you do. OK. Squinch Dec 2015 #93

Straw man, typical. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #96

Not necessarily 'proper,' but certainly 'CURRENT.' elleng Dec 2015 #103

You may not like it, but it is ALWAYS the proper interpretation. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #105

I KNOW the process, elleng Dec 2015 #107

Oh, you mean like Dred Scot or Korematsu or Plessy v Ferguson? The SCOTUS is NOT infallible. Turn CO Blue Dec 2015 #119

If it was a requirement, why would they call it a right pintobean Dec 2015 #3

Indeed. nt appal_jack Dec 2015 #5

Bingo GummyBearz Dec 2015 #39

Historical measures from Europe. lark Dec 2015 #46

Agree. And it wouldn't really matter whether or not it's a "constitutional" question. erronis Dec 2015 #58

BS pintobean Dec 2015 #100

it isn't a right lancer78 Dec 2015 #160

Hopefully we will get a SC again that is not packed with callous, racist right wingers. Hoyt Dec 2015 #4

Guess you also don't understand settled law. GGJohn Dec 2015 #18

Guess your don't understand that the court can and has reversed itself ThoughtCriminal Dec 2015 #37

I'm not clinging to anything, GGJohn Dec 2015 #38

You are clinging to a 5-4 decision ThoughtCriminal Dec 2015 #42

No, I'm clinging to historical fact. GGJohn Dec 2015 #43

No, you are clinging to keeping your 5 gun safes filled with lethal weapons and ammo. Hoyt Dec 2015 #66

Please seek help for your unhealthy fascination of 5 safes. GGJohn Dec 2015 #70

Just pointing out where your loyalty and views lie. Hoyt Dec 2015 #71

As I said................... GGJohn Dec 2015 #77

Come on, they constantly chip away at it. lark Dec 2015 #50

That's the states, not SCOTUS, GGJohn Dec 2015 #113

Precedents are overturned all the time, as Heller and McDonald proved. Hoyt Dec 2015 #65

Wrong again Hoyt, as usual. GGJohn Dec 2015 #74

If the framers of the federal constitution intended a qualified collective right.. X_Digger Dec 2015 #7

If the Second Amendment said what the NRA thinks it said... NNadir Dec 2015 #20

That's a non sequitur. Care to address what I actually wrote? X_Digger Dec 2015 #35

I did address what you wrote, but I think you didn't get it. NNadir Dec 2015 #109

No, you haring off on a different subject is a non sequitur. X_Digger Dec 2015 #111

Um...um...um...yeah...yeah... NNadir Dec 2015 #163

It's the bill of right because these are rights that it protects! It's right there in the preamble. X_Digger Dec 2015 #164

Nice explanation. I guess we will always try to understand what was in the framers' minds, erronis Dec 2015 #64

"in defense of themselves and the State" is a reference to citizen militias. SunSeeker Dec 2015 #85

And? You seem to think that the bill of rights (or state constitutions) limit rights. They don't. X_Digger Dec 2015 #97

The "right" is citizen militias, not private gun ownership for love of gun play. nt SunSeeker Dec 2015 #99

"right of the people to keep and bear arms." -- does not say "the right to form citizen militias". X_Digger Dec 2015 #102

The 2A's words: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." SunSeeker Dec 2015 #114

"I'm out of soda, I'm going to the store." -- do stores sell more than soda? Am I only buying soda? X_Digger Dec 2015 #115

Here, let me finish it for you. GGJohn Dec 2015 #117

Because at the time the Constitution was adopted SickOfTheOnePct Dec 2015 #110

Well, the point being.. these same folks wrote one set of documents protecting an individual right.. X_Digger Dec 2015 #112

And the majority of Constitutional scholars disagree with her, GGJohn Dec 2015 #10

I love Justice Ginsberg, but I wish... NNadir Dec 2015 #11

If she truly believed her interpretation of the 2nd then we would have unregistered machine guns aikoaiko Dec 2015 #13

"Whether a law is outdated is not for judicial review." Orrex Dec 2015 #28

Does the existence of army barracks render the Third Amendment void? appal_jack Dec 2015 #15

The founders and early government regulated firearms gwheezie Dec 2015 #32

me too stupidicus Dec 2015 #44

The US is into selling armaments at home and abroad. jalan48 Dec 2015 #48

This Citizen Suspects That A Ginsburg Smear Campaign Is Now Underway By The NRA cantbeserious Dec 2015 #51

+100 n /t Photographer Dec 2015 #53

Not just the NRA, gun fanciers everywhere. Hoyt Dec 2015 #69

Yes - This Citizen Agrees - Weapon Enthusiasts - Must Have Arch Enemies To Battle cantbeserious Dec 2015 #80

Not me. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #118

Smart woman. Too bad so many in this nation are too fucking dumb to understand CBGLuthier Dec 2015 #68

Right on. ananda Dec 2015 #82

K&R smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #84

Is there a link to this Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #98

NO DOUBT! elleng Dec 2015 #101

Bravo - spot on!!! DrDan Dec 2015 #104

The Bill of Rights has an expiration date? Or just the parts you woke up hating? jtuck004 Dec 2015 #106

If the amendment were reinterpreted to mean what Justice Ginsburg thinks, nothing would change much. Captain Stern Dec 2015 #108

Agree. moondust Dec 2015 #120

Open the door? beevul Dec 2015 #130

Link? moondust Dec 2015 #131

its often overlooked. beevul Dec 2015 #132

"They served the national interest..." moondust Dec 2015 #135

You miss the point. beevul Dec 2015 #142

Sorry, but she's wrong davidn3600 Dec 2015 #125

Well, she's smarter than me and I don't know you so I'll go with her on this. Photographer Dec 2015 #126

Well, I'll go with the guy who actually authored the damn amendment davidn3600 Dec 2015 #129

Good post. Major Hogwash Dec 2015 #138

Yep - of course Madison was referring to the state militias overcoming jmg257 Dec 2015 #139

Though consider how many gungeoneers are Scalia/Thomas fanboys (and girls) on this issue... villager Dec 2015 #127

True dat! Photographer Dec 2015 #137

The question I have on this subject is, Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #149

Rail guns, BFG 9000's, fully auto's w/out permits and the dreaded Sawed off shotgun for a few... Photographer Dec 2015 #150

Reading comprehension fail... Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #151

Lighten up. I was just having a bit of fun with your post. The BFG 9000 should have been a hint. Photographer Dec 2015 #152

Oh, I understood your sarcasm. Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #156

We have different views and opinions on this but we should still be able to talk Photographer Dec 2015 #157

If you mean 'on the street' as to mean criminals Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #158

She's kind of wrong, there, actually Spider Jerusalem Dec 2015 #165