General Discussion

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)

65. Upper income workers already pay for the largest share of the program.

Wed May 30, 2012, 05:45 PM

May 2012

If total wage income = $100, and cap is at 90% of all wage income, and wage income is divided such that the bottom 33% gets 12%, the middle 33% gets 33%, and the top 33% gets 55%, that means:

Bottom pays 74 cents
Middle pays $2
Top pays $2.80 (with cap covering 90% of income in place).

Total collections = $5.54, with top 1/3 paying half.

Uncapped, top pays 3.41 = total collections of $6.15, with top 1/3 paying 55%.

The increase = a sudden doubling of their tax (as individuals), something very easy to see & get pissed about. And it's this segment of wage-earners that's the most politically active, has the most political pull, & is most likely to respond to the right-wing line about how high taxes are.

I believe in real life that the top 1/3 of wage earners actually make more than 55% of all income. They also pay income tax at a higher effective rate than the super-rich.

I think increasing their effective total tax rate more is a good way to destroy SS.

Solutions to non-existent problems always aimed at labor, never at capital.

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Highlight:

Bernie Sanders Has An Amazingly Simple Idea To Fix Social Security For The Next 75 Years [View all] Playinghardball May 2012 OP

IIRK, Obama made the same proposal during the 2008 campaign. hedgehog May 2012 #1

There was also Obama's campaign pledge about taxes... TheWraith May 2012 #14

And, of course, he also pledged to end taxes for seniors making less than $50,000 AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #46

BLOCKED BY CONS & U BLAME him? supraTruth May 2012 #96

Right. It's all the fault of the obstructionist Republicans. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #97

Of course their power is increased Jakes Progress May 2012 #120

but who gave the blue dog Dems their power? Who let Lieberman remain on committees after he robinlynne May 2012 #131

People who think a D means something anymore. Jakes Progress May 2012 #150

Are you saying that the Repubs have NOT been abusing the filibuster?. . . n/t annabanana May 2012 #129

Do you believe that the Republicans prevented Reid from calling for cloture votes? AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #132

If they have to pay in more, do you have to pay out more to them when they retire? n/t hughee99 May 2012 #2

Folks who pay in the maximum amount receive the maximum benefit gratuitous May 2012 #8

So I guess what I'm wondering, is does the "maximum benefit" increase hughee99 May 2012 #45

There's be no advantage in that. Thus pointless unless the intent is to turn SS into welfare & HiPointDem May 2012 #48

Do you think that if you tell them SS is going to take more money hughee99 May 2012 #66

I think it's a nice wedge issue for the free marketeers, and I think the majority of those who would HiPointDem May 2012 #67

A detail to be worked out, I suppose gratuitous May 2012 #64

Upper income workers already pay for the largest share of the program. HiPointDem May 2012 #65

An elderly friend of mine called his SS..."Greens Fees" SoCalDem May 2012 #134

Yes, however... Major Nikon May 2012 #10

And they might live to be 109 and beat the system...or you could die one month after you start... rfranklin May 2012 #13

No. Keep the scale the same as it is today. JDPriestly May 2012 #22

And one other fact to consdier - which sector of the population truedelphi May 2012 #30

Which sector is more likely to live to the age of 67? Those that return to Mexico, go to AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #50

Yes. Lower-income people get proportionally more if they live to collect, but they're more likely HiPointDem May 2012 #52

yes, however only 10 cents on the dollar. So it works out in the end. Sirveri May 2012 #82

It would take five minutes if the Congress had any spine. Scuba May 2012 #3

And if you delete the cap altogether rocktivity May 2012 #4

Yep. supraTruth May 2012 #72

social security doesn't need that much fixing, berrnie. why do you want to give more money HiPointDem May 2012 #5

Alongwitht he fix, insert a provision making the use of the money raised solely for SS. rustydog May 2012 #9

My thoughts exactly Dokkie May 2012 #11

No. For crying out loud, do we have to go over this again? TheWraith May 2012 #15

wrong how? Dokkie May 2012 #19

The Secretary of the Treasury is responsible for it. JDPriestly May 2012 #23

Wow are you wrong. jeff47 May 2012 #25

The idea that the money has been spent is not a RW idea. truedelphi May 2012 #31

So the money in your bank account is gone then? jeff47 May 2012 #34

People are speculating. We simply don't know. truedelphi May 2012 #137

Yes, we do know. jeff47 May 2012 #138

Wait a minute. Before I go on with this "debate" truedelphi May 2012 #139

So either you've decided to change your story, or you're not very good at making a point. jeff47 May 2012 #141

You are intent on deliberately misportraying what I am saying. truedelphi Jun 2012 #151

I agree. I must have expressed myself very badly. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #152

The SS trust fund is in government bonds. zeemike May 2012 #49

the problem isn't the government "spending" it -- the problem is collecting so much money over HiPointDem May 2012 #16

Much money? Dokkie May 2012 #20

*facepalm* jeff47 May 2012 #24

gee, thanks for the history & finance lesson. not. The way you pay for it is with the increased HiPointDem May 2012 #32

Once again, you are completely wrong. jeff47 May 2012 #40

Bullshit. BY 1965 ratio of workers to beneficiaries was already 4 to 1. HiPointDem May 2012 #42

So you agree with me then? jeff47 May 2012 #136

I disagree that the problem is the number of workers per retiree. That's a red herring. HiPointDem May 2012 #144

Math. You do not understand it. (nt) jeff47 May 2012 #18

what Math? Dokkie May 2012 #21

This part jeff47 May 2012 #26

Since you seem to be very Dokkie May 2012 #44

The General Fund is running massive deficits, but the SS Trust Fund is a separate fund. Selatius May 2012 #99

There's multiple options jeff47 May 2012 #135

Love the Bernie. Mercy, I wish we had a few hundred of his clones serving. MerryBlooms May 2012 #6

Oh, they've got a ready-made answer to that one--it makes the program WELFARE if the rich have to Romulox May 2012 #7

"the rich" don't pay for social security. workers pay for it. HiPointDem May 2012 #17

The graphic in the OP refers to "billionaires". That's "rich" by anyone's standards. Romulox May 2012 #27

SS taxes aren't paid on income from capital. Most (all) billionaires get theirs from capital income, HiPointDem May 2012 #35

I understand that. This thread is about removing the cap SS withholding on incomes in excess of Romulox May 2012 #51

So why are you talking about billionaires, and the op talking about "the 1%, as if those are the HiPointDem May 2012 #55

The word "billionaire" was BERNIE SANDER's. Will you PLEASE read the OP before attempting Romulox May 2012 #58

Bernie knows better, which makes me wonder about his motivations as well. All these "solutions" HiPointDem May 2012 #62

Post removed Post removed May 2012 #85

Most workers aren't in the top 5% which this proposal would fix. joshcryer May 2012 #71

For the person who speaks of the "5%", in 2009 the 5% started at $154K, the 10% at $112K. HiPointDem May 2012 #76

So wait, you respond to yourself, to a post I made? joshcryer May 2012 #147

Of course, it would be welfare if some of the funds were used to finance the bail-outs for the AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #54

as they were the last time around. HiPointDem May 2012 #57

Betcha Alan didn't come up with that idea..... MindMover May 2012 #12

I thought Social Security taxes were paid as a % of income progress2k12nbynd May 2012 #28

110K is the cap. harun May 2012 #33

No SS taxes are paid on *any* income from *capital*, under or over the cap. Millionaires & HiPointDem May 2012 #37

So what? That's a lousy argument against lifting the cap. nt Romulox May 2012 #56

It's a good argument against the pretense being made in this thread that raising the cap would hit HiPointDem May 2012 #59

Good luck trying to teach people there is a difference between taxing wealth harun May 2012 #77

capital income is income, not wealth. HiPointDem May 2012 #78

Didn't say it wasn't. harun May 2012 #79

not sure what your point is, then. HiPointDem May 2012 #81

That it won't fix the entire problem in one fell swoop is ALSO a lousy argument... nt Romulox May 2012 #89

who said anything about "not fixing the entire problem in one fell swoop"? i deny that there is HiPointDem May 2012 #92

SS taxes are NOT paid as a % of income. They are paid as a % of net earnings, up to a cap. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #60

The "business" % of SS is considered part of employee compensation. It can be deducted from HiPointDem May 2012 #63

This is just common sense and should be done. WI_DEM May 2012 #29

Sorry, it makes too much sense. penndragon69 May 2012 #36

Not necessarily Dokkie May 2012 #41

The 1% will love it, because it increases taxes on workers, creating another surplus which can HiPointDem May 2012 #38

LOL. I *knew* it. You are against lifting the cap, and are using all sorts of obfuscatory tactics Romulox May 2012 #53

The cap is lifted every year. This proposal isn't about lifting the cap, it's about putting more HiPointDem May 2012 #61

Bernie Sanders mentioned "billionaires". Your continuing misdirections are failing to sway anyone... Romulox May 2012 #90

and you repeated it. name-calling doesn't help your misdirection. HiPointDem May 2012 #91

You can't unilaterally change the Original Topic by shear power of ridiculousness, though. nt Romulox May 2012 #124

The cap isn't lifted. It only adjusts for inflation and not one point higher than that. Selatius May 2012 #100

It's supposed to be set to cover 90% of total wages. In that sense, it justadjusts for inflation. HiPointDem May 2012 #103

True, SS was a pay-as-you-go system prior to Reagan, but if the goal ... Selatius May 2012 #106

The purpose of the trust fund, as originally stated, was to build up a surplus for the "special HiPointDem May 2012 #107

Bush wanted to divert payroll taxes into private accounts in his failed attempt. Selatius May 2012 #108

Now please explain how having a lot of t-bills in the TF will prevent future presidents from HiPointDem May 2012 #109

But it defeats the Greenspan Commission goal of having a temporary surplus. Selatius May 2012 #112

The greenspan commission no longer exists. It came into existence circa 1982 in order to HiPointDem May 2012 #116

At this point, I honestly think we're talking past each other. Selatius May 2012 #118

You want workers to continue being taxed more than the cost of providing social security, in HiPointDem May 2012 #119

Well, when you put it that way, I have no objection to going back to pay-as-you-go. Selatius May 2012 #121

OK, i see why we're talking past each other. No, by law when surplus SS taxes are collected, HiPointDem May 2012 #122

I've been arguing finance with someone who uses "borrow" and "lent" interchangeably??? Romulox May 2012 #127

yes, you linguistic prodigy, you. HiPointDem May 2012 #140

It's not that "borrowed" isn't a word--it's that it's not a synonym for "lent". Romulox May 2012 #143

the phrase googled was "borrowed into." You're the semantic whiz, I'm sure you'll figure out HiPointDem May 2012 #145

It's idiomatic English, at best. Cringeworthy, at worst. nt Romulox May 2012 #146

The fact that you're not familiar with it doesn't make it idiomatic. HiPointDem May 2012 #149

She doesn't WANT the cap lifted. She is very "concerned" for workers making more than $110,000. nt Romulox May 2012 #125

Yep. Defending the top 5%. Really the top 1.5%. It's crazy, to be sure. joshcryer May 2012 #69

"Big tent". Romulox May 2012 #126

K&R. n/t DLevine May 2012 #39

Silly man. The path to insolvency is PRECISELY the agenda. closeupready May 2012 #43

Bernie has a lot of good ideas - TBF May 2012 #47

We don't need to raise the cap on SS taxes. obxhead May 2012 #68

someone making $3 billion isn't getting it from wage income. ergo, they don't pay SS taxes on it. HiPointDem May 2012 #70

True, but a chunk of it is likely in the form of a salary. Selatius May 2012 #101

Show me anyone who gets $20 million in salary. If you look into those big numbers publicized in HiPointDem May 2012 #102

Not necessarily true. Selatius May 2012 #105

OK, let's say blankfein is the exception that proves the rule, since i'm too lazy to research the HiPointDem May 2012 #110

As far as the reasons for Blankfein taking the cash bonus, that's speculative and beyond the scope. Selatius May 2012 #113

of course it's speculation, i said as much. thanks for the one example. but you didn't answer HiPointDem May 2012 #114

That's still speculative. Selatius May 2012 #115

i think we all know that people in blankfein's position prepare their taxes with the goal of paying HiPointDem May 2012 #117

Yet another LOUSY *excuse* not to apply the same SS withholding on *all wages*. Romulox May 2012 #128

Let the media & politicians know that WE know. supraTruth May 2012 #73

what do we know? HiPointDem May 2012 #74

WE KNOW: supraTruth May 2012 #95

Here's a proposal that the 1 pct REALLY won't like. roamer65 May 2012 #75

It would be a far better fix than relying on the stock market. WHEN CRABS ROAR May 2012 #80

I'm cool with that abelenkpe May 2012 #83

Will never pass WinniSkipper May 2012 #84

The real question is would this actually work? nt cstanleytech May 2012 #86

Raising the tax cap without raising the benefits cap would be the quickest way to end SS Nye Bevan May 2012 #87

Bernie means nothing without a party. He just another decision challenged CK_John May 2012 #88

K&R....sounds like a plan to me, thanks Bernie....n/t unkachuck May 2012 #93

DUH! i have been saying this for years. I ALSO BLAME THIS ON GREENSPAN. pansypoo53219 May 2012 #94

This idea has been around for a long time. progressoid May 2012 #98

Why not increase Social Security taxes by increasing the cap? Ronald Reagan did that (and more). AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #104

Remove the cap and lower the percentage krispos42 May 2012 #111

The wealthy elites The Wizard May 2012 #123

Why is not anyone looking at getting our Living-Wage-Jobs back into this country? RC May 2012 #130

Why? Because they are now working on another wage-lowering, anti-union, "free trade" agreement. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #133

Why aren't you publicizing that, then, instead of drumming up support for more taxation on labor HiPointDem May 2012 #142

kicking this baby..... a kennedy May 2012 #148