General Discussion

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)

114. Sorry but you're painting a picture that doesn't reflect reality.

Wed Jan 27, 2016, 09:19 AM

Jan 2016

Yes, they have unreported rapes, but so do every other country. Its a horrific problem that no-one has yet found an adequate way to solve.

The idea that Scandinavia is some hotbed of crime that doesn't get reported though is just complete fantasy, and I say that as someone who lived there for a year. The Scandinavian countries are some of the safest, most prosperous and liberal places on the planet.

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Danish teen fought off her attacker - now she'll face fine [View all] Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 OP

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #1

If the law obligates her to be defenseless to the point of being violently rape the law is unjust. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #2

The law doesn't 'obligate her to be defenseless' Kentonio Jan 2016 #3

So what should she carry, a gun or knife? Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #7

Exactly. What tool is she allowed to use to defend herself? Helen Borg Jan 2016 #55

Her burqa is about all, which is why this is effed up. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #60

It's totally effed up, but I would still rather pay the fine than chance smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #70

They didn't even catch him. He was able to run away. LisaL Jan 2016 #98

English speaking attacker, near a migrant center. TexasMommaWithAHat Jan 2016 #112

One of those rape whistles maybe? PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #131

If she can't fight off her attacker under her own power whose fault is that? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #17

So everyone should always have a legal right Kentonio Jan 2016 #19

If the law obligates someone to remain defenseless when confronted by a predator the is unjust. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #22

The logical destination of that argument is that possession and carry of all weapons should be legal Kentonio Jan 2016 #24

You're more worried about what people carry. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #26

You don't get rid of predators by allowing them to legally carry weapons. Kentonio Jan 2016 #34

Please show me one place where it is legal to carry a weapon in the commission of a crime. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #38

In Europe carrying most weapons is illegal. You don't need to catch someone in the act. Kentonio Jan 2016 #43

Well, her assailant was unarmed so, yes, I suppose you could say there is less weapon crime. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #50

The Danes have no desire as a society to see people freely carrying weapons. Kentonio Jan 2016 #51

"Please don't try and impose your beliefs onto theirs." Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #52

The western European countries are strongly against public carrying of weapons in public Kentonio Jan 2016 #54

"The expectation in Europe is that society is kept safe by thorough and competent law enforcement" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #59

Of course they try and deal with rapists Kentonio Jan 2016 #69

You're speaking on behalf of the Danes in contradiction of the facts Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #72

+1 !! exactly. lunasun Jan 2016 #251

More weapons means more crime kcr Jan 2016 #203

Please show where I advocated arming everyone. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #207

Yeah, well in Denmark the penalty for rape is what - two years? Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #62

I literally -- as in *literally* -- gagged over your 2 years comment. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #64

It's not 2 years. Kentonio Jan 2016 #75

Up to 8 years, maybe 12 if sufficiently violent. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #83

Why exactly would you think I'm defending rape? Kentonio Jan 2016 #87

Your opinion and good intentions are meaningless to victims. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #100

So basically you have nothing to say, you just want to lash out. Kentonio Jan 2016 #101

I support the right to self defense. Self defense trumps opinions and hurt feelings. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #105

So never move to Europe. Kentonio Jan 2016 #107

The people seem quite agreeable. It's the morally bankrupt government that is the issue. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #111

The government are chosen by the people. Kentonio Jan 2016 #113

We just got done commemorating Rev. King's birthday because he taught us -- yet again -- Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #124

It is not an unjust law, and frankly I finding you using King here to be quite inappropriate. Kentonio Jan 2016 #127

"It is not an unjust law" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #138

If I hadn't seen that post with my own eyes... beevul Jan 2016 #152

I'm sure you've seen the exchange throughout the thread. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #169

I have. beevul Jan 2016 #172

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Jan 2016 #217

And most offenders get under two years. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #106

This is why there is such a furor in Europe over immigration. It's two years in Germany also. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #99

Yet America has far, far worse rape statistics than Denmark does Kentonio Jan 2016 #103

Yes, I would. I am a woman. Of the women I've known who have been raped, the only Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #108

Sorry, but studies into this disagree with your experiences Kentonio Jan 2016 #109

Women in Denmark don't even report rape, because they know the police Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #110

Sorry but you're painting a picture that doesn't reflect reality. Kentonio Jan 2016 #114

Two years?! smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #71

That is not true. Kentonio Jan 2016 #74

That's still not nearly enough. Especially if it was particularly violent. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #92

Europe base their criminal justice systems more around rehabilitation than punishment. Kentonio Jan 2016 #94

Yes, exactly. Law's function is make us more, not less, equal. n/t Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #56

This is a stupid argument, IMO. If gangs of criminals or individuals with Uzis were Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #65

Yo mama so smart -- she just wrote that post. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #66

Sorry, that argument is sexist Kentonio Jan 2016 #73

Where did anyone say women only? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #78

"Yes, women who are under credible threat of rape should be allowed to carry defensive weaponry" Kentonio Jan 2016 #82

"Which women? How do you define credible thread?" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #86

Her personally? Kentonio Jan 2016 #88

She is a woman with a credible threat and still you want her prosecuted. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #90

I don't want her to be prosecuted, its not something that gives me any pleasure or happiness Kentonio Jan 2016 #93

You understand why pepper spray is criminalized? Dorian Gray Jan 2016 #193

Yes... ileus Jan 2016 #196

If a man is trying to rape me Aerows Jan 2016 #276

You speak as if the genders were generally equal in siz whathehell Jan 2016 #45

People who use it in assaults or robberies can be prosecuted for using it inappropriately. pnwmom Jan 2016 #144

It's a potentially dangerous weapon. Kentonio Jan 2016 #148

It shouldn't be banned for defensive purposes. It's insane for any of our states pnwmom Jan 2016 #180

I think you're confusing Dorian Gray Jan 2016 #194

Not defenseless but sarisataka Jan 2016 #157

Laws regarding pepper spray vary and there are many types and strengths of pepper spray azurnoir Jan 2016 #5

I do not care. She defended herself from a criminal. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #18

would you restrict the sale to women only? what's to stop an assailant from purchasing it and using azurnoir Jan 2016 #20

"what's to stop an assailant from purchasing it and using it on a victim" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #23

No the law does not prevent that and I edited my original comment to add azurnoir Jan 2016 #25

So what of her age? Does her age somehow obligate her to remain defenseless? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #28

Taking a gun from an assailant is quite a bit different from possessing a gun yourself azurnoir Jan 2016 #32

The authorities failed to protect. The people are not obligated to remain defenseless. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #39

and it may we do not yet know she will be fined azurnoir Jan 2016 #40

No person who defends themelves from a criminal predaor should also have to Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #44

Well, if it went to a jury and I were on that jury, the girl would walk. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #58

I'd vote the same way. hobbit709 Jan 2016 #63

She is facing a fine, per the article, not jail time. LisaL Jan 2016 #84

Well, she wouldn't if I had anything to say about it, and if she does get fined, Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #102

She should be getting a medal and the key to the city. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #211

+1000 n/t. whathehell Jan 2016 #46

+1000 smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #41

Pepper Spray is a very effective defensive tool for women. NutmegYankee Jan 2016 #4

A-fucking-men n/t Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #8

That seems a rather harsh and broadbush indictment. CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #9

You probably don't want to compare sexual equality between the US and Denmark.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #10

ah yaaa Sweden, Norway, the UK , Iceland are all known for their misogyny-rrrright azurnoir Jan 2016 #13

Given the high rates of sexual assault in much of Europe, branford Jan 2016 #27

In fact, it should be mandatory. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #42

Now we're getting weird, using xenophobia as a defense against misogyny. A Simple Game Jan 2016 #57

Are you saying discussing rape statistics is xenophobia just because the statistics are for another PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #133

Looks to me like you are blaming much of it on the migrants. And what statistics are in your post? A Simple Game Jan 2016 #139

That actually wasn't my post. PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #145

Well yeah they are. Some of the highest sexual assault rates in the industrialized world Recursion Jan 2016 #80

and according to reported stats India has one of the lowest azurnoir Jan 2016 #118

Oh no, even by the official stats it's quite high in India Recursion Jan 2016 #121

Of course!!! The law should forbid misuse, and allow self-defensive use. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #104

Exactly. Some of the comments here are shameful. LittleBlue Jan 2016 #182

Dude Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #11

Ok, to answer your original question Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #14

Forget it. Let me take a wild guess. Everyone who is defending this decision is male. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #89

Europe is not like America. Kentonio Jan 2016 #12

Even in the US pepper spray is not across the board legal for anyone to carry azurnoir Jan 2016 #16

What's the rate of sexual assault in Europe? LisaL Jan 2016 #79

Hope this helps. Kentonio Jan 2016 #91

Lets just put it this way: LisaL Jan 2016 #96

You are romanticizing and generalizing about Europe Cal Carpenter Jan 2016 #223

I'm writing this from Europe where I'm currently living, so I feel quite qualified to do so. Kentonio Jan 2016 #225

Rosa Parks packed. A gun. Eleanors38 Jan 2016 #134

And what is this, "Women should appeal to their government to change the law" crap? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #15

+1 betsuni Jan 2016 #36

*This* smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #48

Pardon not granted as I am disinclined to seek favor with those having obvious control issues. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #49

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #76

I never saw whatever it was you self-deleted Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #81

Thank you for this thread. sibelian Jan 2016 #129

Yes, they should, but the law is still unjust. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #53

Given the options ejbr Jan 2016 #21

Huh. Danes sound like they are taking lessons from ISIS on how to treat women. n/t jtuck004 Jan 2016 #29

The top 5 gender equal nations are.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #116

lol. That will comfort her as she pays a fine for having to use pepper spray on a creep. I'll jtuck004 Jan 2016 #141

It's a shame it was applicable in this case Kentonio Jan 2016 #147

Lol. Sure, slavery and subjugation and assault mean equality, the right to be attacked jtuck004 Jan 2016 #149

And yet despite all your huffing and puffing Kentonio Jan 2016 #151

Danes other than the victim in this case. beevul Jan 2016 #153

Because obviously we make laws based on individual outlier cases like this one.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #156

We certainly seem to try where guns are concerned. beevul Jan 2016 #158

Remind me of the single gun crime incident which caused everyone to suddenly try and regulate Kentonio Jan 2016 #161

See sandy hook. beevul Jan 2016 #164

Sandy Hook and the other mass shootings Kentonio Jan 2016 #166

Another misrepresentation. beevul Jan 2016 #171

Not a lot? Damn right it's a lot! Kentonio Jan 2016 #173

In your own words, a statistical OUTLIER. beevul Jan 2016 #174

No not a statistic outlier Kentonio Jan 2016 #177

10,000 incidents in a nation of 300,000,000 is the textbook definition... beevul Jan 2016 #181

Twisting in the wind? Kentonio Jan 2016 #192

So opposition to rape is being "emotionally caught up" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #198

You want to throw away rules designed to protect public safety Kentonio Jan 2016 #200

1. There is no correlation between weapons and crime Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #206

Societal dangers of allowing people to carry dangerous weapons? branford Jan 2016 #199

"totally non-lethal, non-damaging pepper spray"? Kentonio Jan 2016 #201

Of course pepper spray, and virtually all realistic self-defense tools, branford Jan 2016 #205

I'm not missing anything Kentonio Jan 2016 #214

Flawed way to run the legal system? branford Jan 2016 #218

Rapists don't use pepper spray to rape girls. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #256

If a woman pulls a can of pepper spray to defend herself Kentonio Jan 2016 #261

Knock off the 'women can be easily overpowered' shit. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #263

Hey, I was the one saying Kentonio Jan 2016 #268

You can walk around unprotected Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #271

I'm ok with christx30 Jan 2016 #267

I don't give a damn if it's a rapist being hurt Kentonio Jan 2016 #269

How do you suggest a smaller woman christx30 Jan 2016 #272

Far less attacks. Overall it's safer Kentonio Jan 2016 #273

And for the outliers like the woman in the OP, christx30 Jan 2016 #275

A teenage girl has a duty to be raped because you fear her pepper spray will lead to another SH? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #197

Complete bullshit, and I already said I have no interest in talking to you. Kentonio Jan 2016 #202

When the decision came between the law or stopping a rapist you chose the law as higher importance. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #208

Keep on babbling crap if you like. Kentonio Jan 2016 #212

It's not crap if it's what you've been saying the entire thread: law > rape victims Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #213

The right to self defense does not give you a right to carry illegal weapons Kentonio Jan 2016 #215

Yep. law > rape victims -- authortarianism > human rights Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #216

PLEASE!! sarisataka Jan 2016 #220

Yes the individual is less important than the society Kentonio Jan 2016 #224

Societies vary. beevul Jan 2016 #230

Ok you are fine with using a single case Kentonio Jan 2016 #234

Excuse me? beevul Jan 2016 #236

Bullshit Kentonio Jan 2016 #238

Not bullshit at all-you've produced no evidence. What you promote is the ethos of Inspector Javert friendly_iconoclast Jan 2016 #240

Not once have you provided anything to back up your assertions. beevul Jan 2016 #241

Conscience? Oh my conscience is just fine Kentonio Jan 2016 #242

Oh, I completely believe that. beevul Jan 2016 #243

I think this says it all.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #248

Yes, you would. beevul Jan 2016 #252

No evidence? Kentonio Jan 2016 #259

Round and round we go... beevul Jan 2016 #266

You have the evidence Kentonio Jan 2016 #270

Where it stops, nobody knows... beevul Jan 2016 #274

I just wanted to note that pepper spray is hardly banned anywhere in the USA, branford Jan 2016 #277

Thats not 'babbling crap'... beevul Jan 2016 #227

In some twisted way you think assaulting defenseless women represents equality. jtuck004 Jan 2016 #162

What an utterly ridiculous twisting of what I've said Kentonio Jan 2016 #163

Equality is not what is needed here. Equity is what is needed NickB79 Jan 2016 #228

You really think gender equality has fuck-all to do with defending yourself from a rape? NickB79 Jan 2016 #229

It's a society with far less sexism and misogyny than America Kentonio Jan 2016 #235

Except for the occasional rape of defenseless women christx30 Jan 2016 #253

No society has (or sadly probably ever will) Kentonio Jan 2016 #260

What should happen is the christx30 Jan 2016 #262

The attacker was described as an "English-speaking man in dark clothing". surrealAmerican Jan 2016 #125

Yet the ones fining her for defending against this attack are. Keep up. n/t jtuck004 Jan 2016 #137

Not really. English, while not the official language, is the most common second language... Lancero Jan 2016 #168

I can't believe some of the responses. JonathanRackham Jan 2016 #30

From your relatively low post count you appear to be new. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #31

Ain't that the truth Mbrow Jan 2016 #35

I had forgotten about that bit of nasty. beevul Jan 2016 #165

That's fucking sick, right there. X_Digger Jan 2016 #189

Ugh ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2016 #195

I doubt it'll get that far azurnoir Jan 2016 #33

Never underestimate stupidity. JonathanRackham Jan 2016 #37

Been Here A Long Time, And I Can't Either ProfessorGAC Jan 2016 #68

Nor can I. potone Jan 2016 #226

Jesus Christ, this place sometimes. Brickbat Jan 2016 #61

+1 n/t X_Digger Jan 2016 #190

Wow, the comments here suck. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #67

Peruse the Gun forums sometime, branford Jan 2016 #95

Ah, the dogmatic pacifist crowd. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #97

I'm not a fan of guns, but FFS this is pepper spray gollygee Jan 2016 #117

It's exasperating. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #142

the real issue is the conflict between their laws not allowing treestar Jan 2016 #122

That law is wrong. The charges need to be dropped steve2470 Jan 2016 #77

Is there anything like a "go fund me" link for her? Motown_Johnny Jan 2016 #85

If they go ahead and charge her with a fine, Quantess Jan 2016 #115

Pepper spray is illegal? treestar Jan 2016 #119

Urinating on yourself to make yourself christx30 Jan 2016 #254

It's outlawed in England as well. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #257

And you will be jailed sarisataka Jan 2016 #264

Yep. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #265

This is such BS. NaturalHigh Jan 2016 #120

Sounds reasonable to me...i agree. Deuce Jan 2016 #132

+100000000 CharlotteVale Jan 2016 #140

Small price to pay for saving yourself from rape or worse. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #143

OK. Sounds fine to me. Hortensis Jan 2016 #123

Pay the fine, buy more pepper spray Dems to Win Jan 2016 #126

A very nice female LEO once suggested... katsy Jan 2016 #128

Problem is, hair spray isn't rated for self-defense. Oneironaut Jan 2016 #154

The LEOs exact words, and one can't forget these words, were: katsy Jan 2016 #176

Excellent suggestion! Thanks. nt Fla Dem Jan 2016 #170

Lots of anti- sarisataka Jan 2016 #130

self-defense examples do infuriate the vulgar pascifists... Eleanors38 Jan 2016 #136

I have a feeling that they are mostly just anti-self defense when it comes to women. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #146

I have never met a victim sarisataka Jan 2016 #155

Exactly. beevul Jan 2016 #160

Plus ten DashOneBravo Jan 2016 #175

Write off the fine as money well spent. backscatter712 Jan 2016 #135

I'd love to be on the jury. Nye Bevan Jan 2016 #150

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. KamaAina Jan 2016 #159

Replace the moronic politicians and get some common sense laws LittleBlue Jan 2016 #167

.^that 840high Jan 2016 #178

This has been a general tendency in Europe DFW Jan 2016 #179

Unreal. It seems to me, from reading the comments of Europeans in both the smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #183

Maybe romanic Jan 2016 #184

Yes, exactly, but it seems like the Governments and LEO's haven't quite caught up yet with the smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #185

Correct, unfortunately. The RW Nationalists are gaining popularity, wildly Quantess Jan 2016 #186

The law enforcement / self-defense far leftward tilt is separate from and predates branford Jan 2016 #188

It's more nuanced than that DFW Jan 2016 #191

Thank you for your perspective on the issue. I always appreciate getting smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #204

Has Europe lost it's fucking mind? Amaya Jan 2016 #187

Yes it has. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #258

Congrats on sneaking a gungeon thread into GD. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #209

Congrats on picking politics over rape victims. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #210

It would appear that a number of DUers regard Inspector Javert as a role model... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2016 #233

My comment was not meant as a snark. nt redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #246

Sneaking? branford Jan 2016 #219

Glad I wasn't taking a drink... beevul Jan 2016 #231

It wasn't meant as a snark at all. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #244

If by saying "gungeon thread" sarisataka Jan 2016 #221

+10^10. The authoritarian nature of the 'self-defense prohibitionists' has been revealed friendly_iconoclast Jan 2016 #232

Yep. This discussion is typically not GD material. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #247

How is this a gungeon thread? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2016 #239

Because the tool which was used for self-defense is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #245

The tool is relevant because it demonstrates that some self-proclaimed liberals branford Jan 2016 #249

A lot of anti-gun people are also against self-defence. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #255

Well they shouldn't fine her but if they do maybe people will chip in to pay it and yellowcanine Jan 2016 #222

Welcome to 2016 Europe Kurska Jan 2016 #237

"Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". GOLGO 13 Jan 2016 #250