General Discussion

branford

(4,462 posts)

219. Sneaking?

Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:29 AM

Jan 2016

Yea, there never are any threads about guns in GD.

However, if you believe that advocating that women have the means to properly protect themselves from sexual assault, particularly when the OP and thread concerns pepper spray, is only a matter for the firearm forums, it reveals a great deal unflattering about you.

Ironically, such a perspective also underscores why gun rights advocates, including a great many Democrats, refuse to discuss or compromise at all with the other side. As has been demonstrated in this thread, the goal of some is not just the elimination of civilian firearms, but rather all means of effective self-defense, including non-lethal, marginally effective tools like pepper spray. This is little more than advocating for the law of the jungle, where the strong easily overpower and victimize the weak, and is contrary to the very essence of liberal, civilized values.

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Danish teen fought off her attacker - now she'll face fine [View all] Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 OP

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #1

If the law obligates her to be defenseless to the point of being violently rape the law is unjust. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #2

The law doesn't 'obligate her to be defenseless' Kentonio Jan 2016 #3

So what should she carry, a gun or knife? Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #7

Exactly. What tool is she allowed to use to defend herself? Helen Borg Jan 2016 #55

Her burqa is about all, which is why this is effed up. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #60

It's totally effed up, but I would still rather pay the fine than chance smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #70

They didn't even catch him. He was able to run away. LisaL Jan 2016 #98

English speaking attacker, near a migrant center. TexasMommaWithAHat Jan 2016 #112

One of those rape whistles maybe? PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #131

If she can't fight off her attacker under her own power whose fault is that? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #17

So everyone should always have a legal right Kentonio Jan 2016 #19

If the law obligates someone to remain defenseless when confronted by a predator the is unjust. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #22

The logical destination of that argument is that possession and carry of all weapons should be legal Kentonio Jan 2016 #24

You're more worried about what people carry. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #26

You don't get rid of predators by allowing them to legally carry weapons. Kentonio Jan 2016 #34

Please show me one place where it is legal to carry a weapon in the commission of a crime. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #38

In Europe carrying most weapons is illegal. You don't need to catch someone in the act. Kentonio Jan 2016 #43

Well, her assailant was unarmed so, yes, I suppose you could say there is less weapon crime. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #50

The Danes have no desire as a society to see people freely carrying weapons. Kentonio Jan 2016 #51

"Please don't try and impose your beliefs onto theirs." Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #52

The western European countries are strongly against public carrying of weapons in public Kentonio Jan 2016 #54

"The expectation in Europe is that society is kept safe by thorough and competent law enforcement" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #59

Of course they try and deal with rapists Kentonio Jan 2016 #69

You're speaking on behalf of the Danes in contradiction of the facts Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #72

+1 !! exactly. lunasun Jan 2016 #251

More weapons means more crime kcr Jan 2016 #203

Please show where I advocated arming everyone. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #207

Yeah, well in Denmark the penalty for rape is what - two years? Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #62

I literally -- as in *literally* -- gagged over your 2 years comment. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #64

It's not 2 years. Kentonio Jan 2016 #75

Up to 8 years, maybe 12 if sufficiently violent. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #83

Why exactly would you think I'm defending rape? Kentonio Jan 2016 #87

Your opinion and good intentions are meaningless to victims. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #100

So basically you have nothing to say, you just want to lash out. Kentonio Jan 2016 #101

I support the right to self defense. Self defense trumps opinions and hurt feelings. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #105

So never move to Europe. Kentonio Jan 2016 #107

The people seem quite agreeable. It's the morally bankrupt government that is the issue. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #111

The government are chosen by the people. Kentonio Jan 2016 #113

We just got done commemorating Rev. King's birthday because he taught us -- yet again -- Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #124

It is not an unjust law, and frankly I finding you using King here to be quite inappropriate. Kentonio Jan 2016 #127

"It is not an unjust law" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #138

If I hadn't seen that post with my own eyes... beevul Jan 2016 #152

I'm sure you've seen the exchange throughout the thread. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #169

I have. beevul Jan 2016 #172

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Jan 2016 #217

And most offenders get under two years. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #106

This is why there is such a furor in Europe over immigration. It's two years in Germany also. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #99

Yet America has far, far worse rape statistics than Denmark does Kentonio Jan 2016 #103

Yes, I would. I am a woman. Of the women I've known who have been raped, the only Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #108

Sorry, but studies into this disagree with your experiences Kentonio Jan 2016 #109

Women in Denmark don't even report rape, because they know the police Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #110

Sorry but you're painting a picture that doesn't reflect reality. Kentonio Jan 2016 #114

Two years?! smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #71

That is not true. Kentonio Jan 2016 #74

That's still not nearly enough. Especially if it was particularly violent. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #92

Europe base their criminal justice systems more around rehabilitation than punishment. Kentonio Jan 2016 #94

Yes, exactly. Law's function is make us more, not less, equal. n/t Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #56

This is a stupid argument, IMO. If gangs of criminals or individuals with Uzis were Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #65

Yo mama so smart -- she just wrote that post. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #66

Sorry, that argument is sexist Kentonio Jan 2016 #73

Where did anyone say women only? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #78

"Yes, women who are under credible threat of rape should be allowed to carry defensive weaponry" Kentonio Jan 2016 #82

"Which women? How do you define credible thread?" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #86

Her personally? Kentonio Jan 2016 #88

She is a woman with a credible threat and still you want her prosecuted. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #90

I don't want her to be prosecuted, its not something that gives me any pleasure or happiness Kentonio Jan 2016 #93

You understand why pepper spray is criminalized? Dorian Gray Jan 2016 #193

Yes... ileus Jan 2016 #196

If a man is trying to rape me Aerows Jan 2016 #276

You speak as if the genders were generally equal in siz whathehell Jan 2016 #45

People who use it in assaults or robberies can be prosecuted for using it inappropriately. pnwmom Jan 2016 #144

It's a potentially dangerous weapon. Kentonio Jan 2016 #148

It shouldn't be banned for defensive purposes. It's insane for any of our states pnwmom Jan 2016 #180

I think you're confusing Dorian Gray Jan 2016 #194

Not defenseless but sarisataka Jan 2016 #157

Laws regarding pepper spray vary and there are many types and strengths of pepper spray azurnoir Jan 2016 #5

I do not care. She defended herself from a criminal. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #18

would you restrict the sale to women only? what's to stop an assailant from purchasing it and using azurnoir Jan 2016 #20

"what's to stop an assailant from purchasing it and using it on a victim" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #23

No the law does not prevent that and I edited my original comment to add azurnoir Jan 2016 #25

So what of her age? Does her age somehow obligate her to remain defenseless? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #28

Taking a gun from an assailant is quite a bit different from possessing a gun yourself azurnoir Jan 2016 #32

The authorities failed to protect. The people are not obligated to remain defenseless. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #39

and it may we do not yet know she will be fined azurnoir Jan 2016 #40

No person who defends themelves from a criminal predaor should also have to Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #44

Well, if it went to a jury and I were on that jury, the girl would walk. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #58

I'd vote the same way. hobbit709 Jan 2016 #63

She is facing a fine, per the article, not jail time. LisaL Jan 2016 #84

Well, she wouldn't if I had anything to say about it, and if she does get fined, Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #102

She should be getting a medal and the key to the city. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #211

+1000 n/t. whathehell Jan 2016 #46

+1000 smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #41

Pepper Spray is a very effective defensive tool for women. NutmegYankee Jan 2016 #4

A-fucking-men n/t Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #8

That seems a rather harsh and broadbush indictment. CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #9

You probably don't want to compare sexual equality between the US and Denmark.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #10

ah yaaa Sweden, Norway, the UK , Iceland are all known for their misogyny-rrrright azurnoir Jan 2016 #13

Given the high rates of sexual assault in much of Europe, branford Jan 2016 #27

In fact, it should be mandatory. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #42

Now we're getting weird, using xenophobia as a defense against misogyny. A Simple Game Jan 2016 #57

Are you saying discussing rape statistics is xenophobia just because the statistics are for another PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #133

Looks to me like you are blaming much of it on the migrants. And what statistics are in your post? A Simple Game Jan 2016 #139

That actually wasn't my post. PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #145

Well yeah they are. Some of the highest sexual assault rates in the industrialized world Recursion Jan 2016 #80

and according to reported stats India has one of the lowest azurnoir Jan 2016 #118

Oh no, even by the official stats it's quite high in India Recursion Jan 2016 #121

Of course!!! The law should forbid misuse, and allow self-defensive use. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #104

Exactly. Some of the comments here are shameful. LittleBlue Jan 2016 #182

Dude Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #11

Ok, to answer your original question Flying Squirrel Jan 2016 #14

Forget it. Let me take a wild guess. Everyone who is defending this decision is male. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #89

Europe is not like America. Kentonio Jan 2016 #12

Even in the US pepper spray is not across the board legal for anyone to carry azurnoir Jan 2016 #16

What's the rate of sexual assault in Europe? LisaL Jan 2016 #79

Hope this helps. Kentonio Jan 2016 #91

Lets just put it this way: LisaL Jan 2016 #96

You are romanticizing and generalizing about Europe Cal Carpenter Jan 2016 #223

I'm writing this from Europe where I'm currently living, so I feel quite qualified to do so. Kentonio Jan 2016 #225

Rosa Parks packed. A gun. Eleanors38 Jan 2016 #134

And what is this, "Women should appeal to their government to change the law" crap? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #15

+1 betsuni Jan 2016 #36

*This* smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #48

Pardon not granted as I am disinclined to seek favor with those having obvious control issues. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #49

This message was self-deleted by its author CBGLuthier Jan 2016 #76

I never saw whatever it was you self-deleted Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #81

Thank you for this thread. sibelian Jan 2016 #129

Yes, they should, but the law is still unjust. Yo_Mama Jan 2016 #53

Given the options ejbr Jan 2016 #21

Huh. Danes sound like they are taking lessons from ISIS on how to treat women. n/t jtuck004 Jan 2016 #29

The top 5 gender equal nations are.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #116

lol. That will comfort her as she pays a fine for having to use pepper spray on a creep. I'll jtuck004 Jan 2016 #141

It's a shame it was applicable in this case Kentonio Jan 2016 #147

Lol. Sure, slavery and subjugation and assault mean equality, the right to be attacked jtuck004 Jan 2016 #149

And yet despite all your huffing and puffing Kentonio Jan 2016 #151

Danes other than the victim in this case. beevul Jan 2016 #153

Because obviously we make laws based on individual outlier cases like this one.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #156

We certainly seem to try where guns are concerned. beevul Jan 2016 #158

Remind me of the single gun crime incident which caused everyone to suddenly try and regulate Kentonio Jan 2016 #161

See sandy hook. beevul Jan 2016 #164

Sandy Hook and the other mass shootings Kentonio Jan 2016 #166

Another misrepresentation. beevul Jan 2016 #171

Not a lot? Damn right it's a lot! Kentonio Jan 2016 #173

In your own words, a statistical OUTLIER. beevul Jan 2016 #174

No not a statistic outlier Kentonio Jan 2016 #177

10,000 incidents in a nation of 300,000,000 is the textbook definition... beevul Jan 2016 #181

Twisting in the wind? Kentonio Jan 2016 #192

So opposition to rape is being "emotionally caught up" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #198

You want to throw away rules designed to protect public safety Kentonio Jan 2016 #200

1. There is no correlation between weapons and crime Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #206

Societal dangers of allowing people to carry dangerous weapons? branford Jan 2016 #199

"totally non-lethal, non-damaging pepper spray"? Kentonio Jan 2016 #201

Of course pepper spray, and virtually all realistic self-defense tools, branford Jan 2016 #205

I'm not missing anything Kentonio Jan 2016 #214

Flawed way to run the legal system? branford Jan 2016 #218

Rapists don't use pepper spray to rape girls. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #256

If a woman pulls a can of pepper spray to defend herself Kentonio Jan 2016 #261

Knock off the 'women can be easily overpowered' shit. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #263

Hey, I was the one saying Kentonio Jan 2016 #268

You can walk around unprotected Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #271

I'm ok with christx30 Jan 2016 #267

I don't give a damn if it's a rapist being hurt Kentonio Jan 2016 #269

How do you suggest a smaller woman christx30 Jan 2016 #272

Far less attacks. Overall it's safer Kentonio Jan 2016 #273

And for the outliers like the woman in the OP, christx30 Jan 2016 #275

A teenage girl has a duty to be raped because you fear her pepper spray will lead to another SH? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #197

Complete bullshit, and I already said I have no interest in talking to you. Kentonio Jan 2016 #202

When the decision came between the law or stopping a rapist you chose the law as higher importance. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #208

Keep on babbling crap if you like. Kentonio Jan 2016 #212

It's not crap if it's what you've been saying the entire thread: law > rape victims Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #213

The right to self defense does not give you a right to carry illegal weapons Kentonio Jan 2016 #215

Yep. law > rape victims -- authortarianism > human rights Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #216

PLEASE!! sarisataka Jan 2016 #220

Yes the individual is less important than the society Kentonio Jan 2016 #224

Societies vary. beevul Jan 2016 #230

Ok you are fine with using a single case Kentonio Jan 2016 #234

Excuse me? beevul Jan 2016 #236

Bullshit Kentonio Jan 2016 #238

Not bullshit at all-you've produced no evidence. What you promote is the ethos of Inspector Javert friendly_iconoclast Jan 2016 #240

Not once have you provided anything to back up your assertions. beevul Jan 2016 #241

Conscience? Oh my conscience is just fine Kentonio Jan 2016 #242

Oh, I completely believe that. beevul Jan 2016 #243

I think this says it all.. Kentonio Jan 2016 #248

Yes, you would. beevul Jan 2016 #252

No evidence? Kentonio Jan 2016 #259

Round and round we go... beevul Jan 2016 #266

You have the evidence Kentonio Jan 2016 #270

Where it stops, nobody knows... beevul Jan 2016 #274

I just wanted to note that pepper spray is hardly banned anywhere in the USA, branford Jan 2016 #277

Thats not 'babbling crap'... beevul Jan 2016 #227

In some twisted way you think assaulting defenseless women represents equality. jtuck004 Jan 2016 #162

What an utterly ridiculous twisting of what I've said Kentonio Jan 2016 #163

Equality is not what is needed here. Equity is what is needed NickB79 Jan 2016 #228

You really think gender equality has fuck-all to do with defending yourself from a rape? NickB79 Jan 2016 #229

It's a society with far less sexism and misogyny than America Kentonio Jan 2016 #235

Except for the occasional rape of defenseless women christx30 Jan 2016 #253

No society has (or sadly probably ever will) Kentonio Jan 2016 #260

What should happen is the christx30 Jan 2016 #262

The attacker was described as an "English-speaking man in dark clothing". surrealAmerican Jan 2016 #125

Yet the ones fining her for defending against this attack are. Keep up. n/t jtuck004 Jan 2016 #137

Not really. English, while not the official language, is the most common second language... Lancero Jan 2016 #168

I can't believe some of the responses. JonathanRackham Jan 2016 #30

From your relatively low post count you appear to be new. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #31

Ain't that the truth Mbrow Jan 2016 #35

I had forgotten about that bit of nasty. beevul Jan 2016 #165

That's fucking sick, right there. X_Digger Jan 2016 #189

Ugh ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2016 #195

I doubt it'll get that far azurnoir Jan 2016 #33

Never underestimate stupidity. JonathanRackham Jan 2016 #37

Been Here A Long Time, And I Can't Either ProfessorGAC Jan 2016 #68

Nor can I. potone Jan 2016 #226

Jesus Christ, this place sometimes. Brickbat Jan 2016 #61

+1 n/t X_Digger Jan 2016 #190

Wow, the comments here suck. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #67

Peruse the Gun forums sometime, branford Jan 2016 #95

Ah, the dogmatic pacifist crowd. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #97

I'm not a fan of guns, but FFS this is pepper spray gollygee Jan 2016 #117

It's exasperating. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #142

the real issue is the conflict between their laws not allowing treestar Jan 2016 #122

That law is wrong. The charges need to be dropped steve2470 Jan 2016 #77

Is there anything like a "go fund me" link for her? Motown_Johnny Jan 2016 #85

If they go ahead and charge her with a fine, Quantess Jan 2016 #115

Pepper spray is illegal? treestar Jan 2016 #119

Urinating on yourself to make yourself christx30 Jan 2016 #254

It's outlawed in England as well. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #257

And you will be jailed sarisataka Jan 2016 #264

Yep. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #265

This is such BS. NaturalHigh Jan 2016 #120

Sounds reasonable to me...i agree. Deuce Jan 2016 #132

+100000000 CharlotteVale Jan 2016 #140

Small price to pay for saving yourself from rape or worse. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #143

OK. Sounds fine to me. Hortensis Jan 2016 #123

Pay the fine, buy more pepper spray Dems to Win Jan 2016 #126

A very nice female LEO once suggested... katsy Jan 2016 #128

Problem is, hair spray isn't rated for self-defense. Oneironaut Jan 2016 #154

The LEOs exact words, and one can't forget these words, were: katsy Jan 2016 #176

Excellent suggestion! Thanks. nt Fla Dem Jan 2016 #170

Lots of anti- sarisataka Jan 2016 #130

self-defense examples do infuriate the vulgar pascifists... Eleanors38 Jan 2016 #136

I have a feeling that they are mostly just anti-self defense when it comes to women. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #146

I have never met a victim sarisataka Jan 2016 #155

Exactly. beevul Jan 2016 #160

Plus ten DashOneBravo Jan 2016 #175

Write off the fine as money well spent. backscatter712 Jan 2016 #135

I'd love to be on the jury. Nye Bevan Jan 2016 #150

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. KamaAina Jan 2016 #159

Replace the moronic politicians and get some common sense laws LittleBlue Jan 2016 #167

.^that 840high Jan 2016 #178

This has been a general tendency in Europe DFW Jan 2016 #179

Unreal. It seems to me, from reading the comments of Europeans in both the smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #183

Maybe romanic Jan 2016 #184

Yes, exactly, but it seems like the Governments and LEO's haven't quite caught up yet with the smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #185

Correct, unfortunately. The RW Nationalists are gaining popularity, wildly Quantess Jan 2016 #186

The law enforcement / self-defense far leftward tilt is separate from and predates branford Jan 2016 #188

It's more nuanced than that DFW Jan 2016 #191

Thank you for your perspective on the issue. I always appreciate getting smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #204

Has Europe lost it's fucking mind? Amaya Jan 2016 #187

Yes it has. Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2016 #258

Congrats on sneaking a gungeon thread into GD. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #209

Congrats on picking politics over rape victims. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #210

It would appear that a number of DUers regard Inspector Javert as a role model... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2016 #233

My comment was not meant as a snark. nt redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #246

Sneaking? branford Jan 2016 #219

Glad I wasn't taking a drink... beevul Jan 2016 #231

It wasn't meant as a snark at all. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #244

If by saying "gungeon thread" sarisataka Jan 2016 #221

+10^10. The authoritarian nature of the 'self-defense prohibitionists' has been revealed friendly_iconoclast Jan 2016 #232

Yep. This discussion is typically not GD material. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #247

How is this a gungeon thread? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2016 #239

Because the tool which was used for self-defense is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. redgreenandblue Jan 2016 #245

The tool is relevant because it demonstrates that some self-proclaimed liberals branford Jan 2016 #249

A lot of anti-gun people are also against self-defence. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #255

Well they shouldn't fine her but if they do maybe people will chip in to pay it and yellowcanine Jan 2016 #222

Welcome to 2016 Europe Kurska Jan 2016 #237

"Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". GOLGO 13 Jan 2016 #250