General Discussion

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)

135. We have to try

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:22 AM

Jan 2016

and then try again, and again, and again.

Pragmatism only works so much, at some point idealism needs to step up and force change. Civil rights, womens right to vote, lgbt rights, none of these were changed because people behaved and quietly worked within the system. Thank goodness they didn't give up. They stood up and shouted to everyone they could reach with their voices. More and more joined in until change came.

People will often sit back and say nothing until enough people stand up and then they feel safe enough to stand up.

There is a line in one of my faiths "prayers" (for lack of a better word) that says "Keep pure your highest ideal; strive ever toward it; let naught stop you or turn you aside."

I think these are wise words.

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KRUGMAN: "a simple, straightforward single-payer system just isn�t going to happen" [View all] kpete Jan 2016 OP

I understand his point, but he was being far more pessimistic than I expected Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #1

Because Krugman is reality based and reality is on Hillary's side. nt stevenleser Jan 2016 #6

Exactly. And he's right on this issue, as is Clinton. Hoyt Jan 2016 #20

Talking about kludgey 1939 Jan 2016 #41

And when Hillary Care was defeated, it was almost 20 years before anyone would touch it. Hoyt Jan 2016 #44

Because it was a complicated bureaucratic nightmare 1939 Jan 2016 #65

It put control at the local level. Medicare actually isn't that simple because most folks don't get Hoyt Jan 2016 #70

Right to a point 1939 Jan 2016 #140

Exactly one reason I think Medicare for all will be quite expensive. Hoyt Jan 2016 #141

Medicare didn't spring full blown into the program it is today -- which still pnwmom Jan 2016 #137

They are completely wrong. alarimer Jan 2016 #99

If you can get it passed, which is what Clinton and Krugman are saying -- you can't short-term. Hoyt Jan 2016 #102

sorry, you don't get change by pushing for incremental improvements Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #27

That is exactly how you get change in a Democracy. You rarely have the opportunity to do it any stevenleser Jan 2016 #31

Wrong Perogie Jan 2016 #39

Read about how the Social Security program evolved with incremental changes. Hoyt Jan 2016 #50

from a strict point of negotiating though, you start with a big goal Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #94

That is somewhat a simplification. A lot of negotiation goes on in the background. Hoyt Jan 2016 #95

And that is the same line of bullshit the 'civil unions are all that is possible' bigots pushed Bluenorthwest Jan 2016 #69

" the way things are serve them just fine". Or they haven't been burned (yet) by the way things are antigop Jan 2016 #77

Except it did take years and decades for same sex marriage mythology Jan 2016 #115

Tell that to the anti-smoking crowd. JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #59

i'm glad it's being debated in pres primary. we need to have this debate again and again... tk2kewl Jan 2016 #35

Says the person who had THIS to say in 2008: ljm2002 Jan 2016 #68

So that means we can hold Sanders responsible for his gun positions in 2008 stevenleser Jan 2016 #74

Nice try, no cigar... ljm2002 Jan 2016 #78

That poster is always more harsh than necessary, it's part of his schtick Fumesucker Jan 2016 #139

Except, you leave out the part JesterCS Jan 2016 #138

I agree with his assessment of the political realities. ronnie624 Jan 2016 #79

You're arguments are so silly WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #142

Yeah, I know, whether someone can actually do what they promise is a silly thing to consider. stevenleser Jan 2016 #144

I just explained it all to you WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #145

SO. we try. pangaia Jan 2016 #2

How is that? Squinch Jan 2016 #8

Don't get me wrong, I am not against it. pangaia Jan 2016 #14

To say that it is an absolute disaster for millions is the same as saying you are against it. Squinch Jan 2016 #17

not a disaster kpete Jan 2016 #33

I've seen many of those too. Squinch Jan 2016 #36

Perhaps I exagerated. pangaia Jan 2016 #66

Everyone has a tendency to do that. maxsolomon Jan 2016 #113

Agreed. Obama never wanted a Public Option WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #40

Too hard! tazkcmo Jan 2016 #3

exactly. Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #28

+1000000 SammyWinstonJack Jan 2016 #86

Which is how we got the ACA passed. Next step � public option, then single-payer. brush Jan 2016 #108

I'm ok with that tazkcmo Jan 2016 #120

Agreed. Single payer has to be the final goal brush Jan 2016 #124

Thanks, third way. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #4

Krugman is not being honest. Either that, or he's being incredibly naive. merrily Jan 2016 #5

Krugman is being pragmatic and wants to fix things and get things done-like Hillary. riversedge Jan 2016 #10

I find the article completely honest TeddyR Jan 2016 #11

There was zero chance Alexander could defeat Napoleon, also. pangaia Jan 2016 #19

That's a trite response Cosmocat Jan 2016 #88

I see. pangaia Jan 2016 #89

He didn't have a majority of the House and Senate TeddyR Jan 2016 #110

That is absolutely true. pangaia Jan 2016 #112

I don't think he's being honest about the issue as a whole, including his description of the past. merrily Jan 2016 #22

If the dems could finally get a mid-term right - that would be a game changer lame54 Jan 2016 #7

Not until the redistricting issue is solved. Which would require massive state level Democratic stevenleser Jan 2016 #12

I hear you-- we don't have much chance until the new census Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #29

I fully expect a President Sanders to spend the first 2 years of his first term Volaris Jan 2016 #18

That is exactly what he did as mayor of Burlington, I am learning. pangaia Jan 2016 #23

The House is gerrymandered to Republicans JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #64

So never try and you'll get it one day? mmonk Jan 2016 #9

We were assured that ACA was not going to be the be all and end all, only the beginning. merrily Jan 2016 #25

exactly. Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #30

Talk about dishonest (your words upthread). Single Payer isn't going further on the ACA KittyWampus Jan 2016 #56

Talk about dishonest (your words in Reply 56). My post upthread never said anything about merrily Jan 2016 #60

If the Democrats have a candidate who's diminishing the accomplishments of ACA pnwmom Jan 2016 #117

This is massive bullshit. stillwaiting Jan 2016 #13

Nope, you cannot have it until January 2023 at the earliest. stevenleser Jan 2016 #15

If only we had a candidate that could energize more people to the polls Perogie Jan 2016 #42

Being something that 50% of the populace won't vote for excludes you from being that stevenleser Jan 2016 #61

You're right Perogie Jan 2016 #132

This is the correct answer madville Jan 2016 #49

This is why midterms are so important. Beartracks Jan 2016 #129

Of course but this is a marathon, not a sprint Quixote1818 Jan 2016 #103

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalArkie Jan 2016 #16

Not really 1939 Jan 2016 #46

Never underestimate the value of a deductible expense R.A. Ganoush Jan 2016 #55

Surrender to the kleptocracy. All resistance is futile. Warren Stupidity Jan 2016 #21

It's as if you don't realize there are other options. KittyWampus Jan 2016 #57

There is one sure way to stay with the status quo. onecaliberal Jan 2016 #24

Because I agree with Krugman likely means, once again, I'm not a real liberal Blue_Adept Jan 2016 #26

Bernie made the point last night, none of this will change unless we change campaign finance laws. leftupnorth Jan 2016 #32

Incrementalism. HughBeaumont Jan 2016 #34

Obamacare worked for the very poor and for the very rich (insurance companies) Doctor_J Jan 2016 #37

let's not try to change anything at all because sometimes we might fail Perogie Jan 2016 #38

It's not realistic to expect either candidate to get anything WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #43

Supreme Court nominations madville Jan 2016 #58

I covered that here WhaTHellsgoingonhere Jan 2016 #81

Krugman's right lanlady Jan 2016 #45

If you had asked most pundits a year ago... ljm2002 Jan 2016 #75

Ask yourself whether we get more and better Democrats with Hillary or Bernie as President. stillwaiting Jan 2016 #97

Well just have to leave Krug man behind Rosa Luxemburg Jan 2016 #47

Gladly Proserpina Jan 2016 #63

I think he is just looking at the handwriting on the wall and saying he thinks this is the CTyankee Jan 2016 #118

If Bernie can't get universal care kcjohn1 Jan 2016 #48

I think a President Bernie 1939 Jan 2016 #51

a bridge too far dembotoz Jan 2016 #52

People forget that Obamacare began as single payer. JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #53

Bernie is promising to work with us. That's what he's promising. stillwaiting Jan 2016 #98

Well good luck then JohnnyRingo Jan 2016 #114

What was it RFK said? mikehiggins Jan 2016 #54

Krugman is handing out 10 lbs of BS in a 2 lb Sack Proserpina Jan 2016 #62

Well Mr. Krugman olddots Jan 2016 #67

this is the sort of truth that makes me want to leave this dump of a country forever. librechik Jan 2016 #71

You think it's all puppy dogs and rainbows somewhere else? stevenleser Jan 2016 #82

When I first visited my son in AU he handed me his Medicare card and said: librechik Jan 2016 #85

no answer? And we could be as functional here in the US if it weren't for hate. librechik Jan 2016 #96

People who say "it can't be done" need to shut up and go away. Avalux Jan 2016 #72

Thanks for your input Paul. elias49 Jan 2016 #73

First we need public option. Then WDIM Jan 2016 #76

Uh-oh, time for the hatred of Paul to begin... joeybee12 Jan 2016 #80

In other words, decide you are going to lose before negotiations even begin, Zorra Jan 2016 #83

Again with the fear meme Orrex Jan 2016 #92

Single-payer will never happen Matrosov Jan 2016 #84

When Krugman agrees with Sanders, he's a genius Orrex Jan 2016 #87

I think our best hope would be to get a public option - Vinca Jan 2016 #90

As I've Read & Listened To Krugman For Many Years... ChiciB1 Jan 2016 #91

Mostly status quo now. ozone_man Jan 2016 #93

I Suppose You Could Put It Another Way... ChiciB1 Jan 2016 #106

His statement of the goal is incorrect. The goal is access to healthcare, not health insurance. xocet Jan 2016 #100

Krugman has always portrayed himself as an FDR Democrat. jwirr Jan 2016 #101

Yes, that kind of thing is for other countries. moondust Jan 2016 #104

It's like none of these people have any idea what "Progressive" means. kjones Jan 2016 #105

So, what is Krugman saying, really? Baitball Blogger Jan 2016 #107

Krugman's been pretty incoherent on this issue for a while Chathamization Jan 2016 #109

When I looked at the article on the NY Times website... Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2016 #111

Try again. You missed them. Bottom, right hand side. n/t pnwmom Jan 2016 #116

They were invisible on my phone, but I saw them when I Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2016 #123

The way to get the public option, is to demand something even less palatable to TPTB. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2016 #119

we will never go to the moon SoLeftIAmRight Jan 2016 #121

Krugman, the voice of reason. Beacool Jan 2016 #122

Hey, Kroog. We've all seen the ACA. I think we get that. Orsino Jan 2016 #125

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Jan 2016 #126

We will have single-payer when our population is more manageable. randome Jan 2016 #127

He's not reading. zipplewrath Jan 2016 #128

This much is certain: as long as Democratic Eeyores say "no we can't" Maedhros Jan 2016 #130

Here�s One Big Problem With The Bernie Sanders Plan For Health Care Utopia Gothmog Jan 2016 #131

Krugman has already chosen his side. What a sellout AZ Progressive Jan 2016 #133

That is the kind of hopelessness and capitulation to power we have already overdosed on. Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #134

We have to try Marrah_G Jan 2016 #135

Yes, thank you Marrah_G Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #136

How about Medicare for All? jpak Jan 2016 #143