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Bucky

(55,334 posts)
16. Glad to give you a giggle
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:40 PM
Dec 2011

But seriously, compare the wars in the region since 1945 to the wars carried on during the same time span prior to 1941.

Under American dominance: The expulsion of Chinese Nationalists to Taiwan, anti colonial wars in Indochina, Malaya & Indonesia, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Indonesia–Malaysia fights of the 1960s, Vietnam's aggressions against its Indochinese neighbors in the 1970s and the showdown with China in 1979. Since the 1980s there's been a gradual drift toward democratization and a great expansion of political freedom and economic prosperity.

Before American dominance: the Netherlands spent 30 years conquering Indonesia then fought another war to conquer Bali, France conquered IndoChina and put down constant rebellions, Russia fought Japan, Germany and America nearly went to war over Samoa, Spain fought a century of opposition from Filipinos, then America conquered the Philippines and spent another decade putting down the resistance.
Everybody cut a violent slice out of China: France in the 1880s, Russia and Japan in the 1890s. England had already fought two "Opium Wars" against China to force the legalization of the drug there at the same time they were outlawing it back home. France fought another war attempting to take over Thailand (called Siam then). Japan outright conquered the former Chinese vassal of Formosa just 'cause. Germany muscled the already humiliated China into turning over control of part of its lands around Tsingtao (that's why they produce a great lager there today). Finally China responded with the violent Boxer Uprising, only to see itself put down once again. These constants losses led to China's 1911 Revolution. There would be almost constant internal rebellions over the next 30 years resulting from this weakness.
Then Japan and Russia fought over competing interests in China. This was a dress rehearsal for World War One, a fight among all the great colonial powers. In the Pacific Rim, Japan conquered all of Germany's holdings, including Tsingtao and Samoa. Toward the end of the war Russia had a revolution, leading to Japan, Britain, and the United States all invading Siberia and trying to set up Vladivostok at a separate nation, which eventually led to the Communists violently driving them out of Russia's Pacific Coast.
Then in the 1930s, Japan would twice launch major invasions of China, retaking Manchuria and culminating in the bloody reprisals at Nanjing (Nanking then) in 1937. American support for Chinese resistance (which was rooted in American wishes to maintain trade with the Far East and protect the Philippines) and the US embargo on oil for Japan's war led directly to the 1941 simultaneous attack on all French, British, and Dutch outposts in the Pacific Rim and the brief conquest of the Philippines.

By any reasonable measure, the fight for dominance was vastly bloodier and more turbulent--and led to greater repression of local populations--than all of what has transpired since US dominance was established. I don't excuse American belligerence in the world. But I'm not so blind to history to think that other nations would provide the same level of peace among the nations of the Far East if there were suddenly to be a new scramble for power.

Or perhaps you think that if the US withdrew from its Pacific bases that somehow there would NOT be a scramble for power in the resulting vacuum.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

+1 n/t doc03 Dec 2011 #1
I'm with him too. MoonRiver Dec 2011 #2
This message was self-deleted by its author Obamanaut Dec 2011 #3
I think we should close almost all US military bases MineralMan Dec 2011 #4
Not a good development. America's navy really needs operating bases in eastern Asia Bucky Dec 2011 #5
With our war record in the Middle East and elsewhere? RC Dec 2011 #6
The United States and peacful inetent in the same sentence. sarcasmo Dec 2011 #7
Glad to give you a giggle Bucky Dec 2011 #16
Why should the US people pay to patrol the Pacific Ocean? You haven't made your case. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #8
How else can we enjoy our cheap goods? Robb Dec 2011 #10
"Externalities" (e.g. a massive military shield) give a bogus sense of "cheap". It's not "cheap" Romulox Dec 2011 #11
If the US withdrew from the Pacific, those goods wouldn't be so cheap Bucky Dec 2011 #13
I think reality makes the case. Bucky Dec 2011 #12
I agree with you d_r Dec 2011 #14
I notice you didn't mention the interests of the AMERICAN PEOPLE once in your lengthy response! nt Romulox Dec 2011 #15
Sorry, somehow I deleted that paragraph Bucky Dec 2011 #17
Your answer is contradictory. How can a "huge black hole of lost commercial productivity" be a boon? Romulox Dec 2011 #19
Don't make me laugh. The Japanese people will never agree to allow the US to leave Japan. Romulox Dec 2011 #9
For anyone wanting to know why read "Blowback" by Chalmers Johnson. I totally agree. jwirr Dec 2011 #18
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