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In reply to the discussion: David Sirota: The Legend of the Spat-Upon Veteran [View all]JHB
(38,138 posts)86. There are some people who are much more to blame than a few scattered self-righteous kids
This 2007 post by Digby at Hullabaloo (an army brat) is relevant to this discussion.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/loudmouths-by-digby-following-up-on-his.html
Following up on his earlier post about the American Legion (which I also wrote about here last week) Rick Perlstein reminds us all that the dirty hippies weren't the only ones who treated the Vietnam Vets like dirt. Indeed, the American Legion was among the worst offenders:
One thing I would take issue with about this (sorry Rick) is the idea that these were "old men." Most of them were in their 40's and early 50's, and in our culture of the time they were supposed to be the masters of the universe -- the Husbands and the Dads who fought the Big One and came home to take back their role as the Big Boss, at least in their own lives. They had sacrificed much and here they were, at the height of their power, watching the edifices of a whole lot of heritable prerogatives falling down around them. Many of them were very, very pissed.
And you have to be a little bit sympathetic. Their youths were spent fighting a truly vicious, if righteous, war. They saw things. As a result, despite their recent Disneyfied canonization at the hands of the Monsignor and Tom Brokaw, they were not the healthiest individuals in the world: they were extremely complicated people. And they certainly weren't innocent or silent.
I remember hearing in my own home that Calley was a hero, which was the kind of thing you heard all the time coming from some Greatest Generation guys. The gay-baiting was also entirely common, as was the assumption that Vietnam vets were all cowards. These particular WWII vets were not a monolith, of course, and there were many who were able to see the moral ambiguity of the situation and who granted respect to those who served in Vietnam (and even some of the college kids and draftees who were sincerely trying to end the war --- and change the world.) But don't kid yourself. There were tens of thousands of WWII vets who were just this side of fascist and who considered anyone who didn't follow their government with a crisp salute and click of the heels to be a commie or a "fag" or both. They were a common and dominating feature of living through the 1960's and 70's.
As someone who grew up listening to vile characterizations of vets from other vets, and who witnessed first hand the macho denigration of anyone who failed to toe the line, I can't help but be stunned to see how the history of the era has been rewritten to reflect that it was solely the unruly college kids who destroyed the Democrats. Talk about blaming the victims --- there was an amazing amount of blind malevolence and sheer hatred that emanated from the vaunted silent majority during those times. They had plenty to say and they said it --- as loudly and obnoxiously as the hippies ever did. The 60's were a two way street.
They were the kind of veterans who - Gerald Nicosia tells the story in his history of Vietnam Veterans Against the War - greeted the antiwar veterans who had marched 86 miles from Morristown, New Jersey to Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, just like George Washington's army in 1877. The World War II veterans heckled them:
"Why don't you go to Hanoi?"
"We won our war, they didn't, and from the looks of them, they couldn't."
A Vietnam vets hobbled by on crutches. One of the old men wondered whether he had been "shot with marijuana or shot in battle."
I forgot, too, about their political interference in a prominent trial. The Legion post in Columbus, Georgia, home of Lt. William Calley's Fort Benning jail cell, promised they would raise $100,000 to help fund the appeal of the man convicted of murder in the My Lai Massacre "or die trying": "The real murderers are the demonstrators in Washington," they said, "who disrupt traffic, tear up public property, who deface the American flag. Lieut. Calley is a hero..... We should elevate him to saint rather than jail him like a common criminal."
One thing I would take issue with about this (sorry Rick) is the idea that these were "old men." Most of them were in their 40's and early 50's, and in our culture of the time they were supposed to be the masters of the universe -- the Husbands and the Dads who fought the Big One and came home to take back their role as the Big Boss, at least in their own lives. They had sacrificed much and here they were, at the height of their power, watching the edifices of a whole lot of heritable prerogatives falling down around them. Many of them were very, very pissed.
And you have to be a little bit sympathetic. Their youths were spent fighting a truly vicious, if righteous, war. They saw things. As a result, despite their recent Disneyfied canonization at the hands of the Monsignor and Tom Brokaw, they were not the healthiest individuals in the world: they were extremely complicated people. And they certainly weren't innocent or silent.
I remember hearing in my own home that Calley was a hero, which was the kind of thing you heard all the time coming from some Greatest Generation guys. The gay-baiting was also entirely common, as was the assumption that Vietnam vets were all cowards. These particular WWII vets were not a monolith, of course, and there were many who were able to see the moral ambiguity of the situation and who granted respect to those who served in Vietnam (and even some of the college kids and draftees who were sincerely trying to end the war --- and change the world.) But don't kid yourself. There were tens of thousands of WWII vets who were just this side of fascist and who considered anyone who didn't follow their government with a crisp salute and click of the heels to be a commie or a "fag" or both. They were a common and dominating feature of living through the 1960's and 70's.
As someone who grew up listening to vile characterizations of vets from other vets, and who witnessed first hand the macho denigration of anyone who failed to toe the line, I can't help but be stunned to see how the history of the era has been rewritten to reflect that it was solely the unruly college kids who destroyed the Democrats. Talk about blaming the victims --- there was an amazing amount of blind malevolence and sheer hatred that emanated from the vaunted silent majority during those times. They had plenty to say and they said it --- as loudly and obnoxiously as the hippies ever did. The 60's were a two way street.
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And O'Reilly slandered the 82nd Airborne by falsely claiming that the "Malmedy" massacre
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#44
I assume that you're right. "O'Reilly falsely accusing the 82nd Airborne of a "massacre" in Malmédy
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#52
I heard that story too, about vets coming home and "hippies" lining up on either side to spit on
HiPointDem
Jun 2012
#77
Is it credible that someone would hurt this guy's feelings by spitting upon him?
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#3
Ask one of those vets what he would have done if a woman had done the spitting.
malthaussen
Jun 2012
#16
John-I-was-spit-upon-Rambo won't be able to answer because he was not a vet.
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#24
What sometimes occurs to me is that there was a lot of opposition to "Kennedy's/Johnson's" war ...
zbdent
Jun 2012
#9
Are you suggesting that the war was not largely *seen* as Mr Johnson's creation?
malthaussen
Jun 2012
#29
My words speak for themselves in response to the poster who said it was "Kennedy's/Johnson's" war.
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#34
My late husband spent 7 mo in San Francisco, never spat upon, never saw anyone spat upon
duhneece
Jun 2012
#10
I was at a lecture with other seniors listening to a retired college professor talk about
CTyankee
Jun 2012
#13
Or maybe he misremembered and over the years he's gotten more comfortable with it.
CTyankee
Jun 2012
#21
Have any of those allegedly familiar with spit victims ever claimed that the spitor was a woman?
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#27
Stabbed in the back! The past and future of a right-wing myth - Harper's Magazine 2006
Kolesar
Jun 2012
#19
A corollary: the liberal media lost the war. Forget about the courage and
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#41
Cronkite may not have sapped our will to continue, since continue we did
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#46
I don't think LBJ allegedly said it to Bill Moyers (his press secretary). I think
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#54
You are more than welcome. It's funny the tricks memory plays on you, as
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#61
Most of us young men at the time were eligible for the draft. Any one of us could have been sent to
mulsh
Jun 2012
#28
I generally agree with and support Sirota. I do feel I must point out
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#31
I'm not sure I'm allowed to reference DUers by posting name specifically - rules
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#40
You mentioned that you were influenced by first-person reports from DUers in good standing.
AnotherMcIntosh
Jun 2012
#42
I understand where you are coming from (I think). Look, I was 8 years old in 1968 (when
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#43
Reagan started 'The Big Lie' when he called Vietnam "A noble cause". I still
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#55
I had a co-worker who told me her husband was spit on when he returned from vietnam. She
HiPointDem
Jun 2012
#76
I remember 'Coming Home' being a profoundly anti-war and sad movie but don't remember
coalition_unwilling
Jun 2012
#82
The one who spat hardest was Reagan, with his cuts to veterans' benefit and slashing social services
suffragette
Jun 2012
#83
There are some people who are much more to blame than a few scattered self-righteous kids
JHB
Jun 2012
#86
I served 3 tours in RVN, came through the SF airport 5 times, always treated well
1-Old-Man
Jun 2012
#88