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In reply to the discussion: Voting One's Conscience [View all]

malthaussen

(18,498 posts)
74. Rather than "more than expected,"
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 01:12 PM
Mar 2016

... and a bit beyond the scope of the question. Which is okay by me.

As to the specific point, however, the assertion would then be "It is okay to vote your conscience where there is no tactical reason to do otherwise." Which would then necessitate the question be even more specific: how could a conscience that cannot vote for one candidate nevertheless not vote against Mr Trump when it arguably matters. A fair distinction, and a good one, I think, for those who are really interested in that question.

You're probably aware of the irony that the officer who recommended Mr Hitler for a decoration was a Jew. There were groups of Jewish veterans who supported Mr Hitler. It is true, and part of the answer of "how could they let it happen to them," that many of those the Nazi party set out to eliminate had no concept that they were about to be destroyed, that this good society could possibly enable such a heinous sequence of actions. Mutato mutandis, I'm sure that feeling is present in the US. I am not sanguine that, if Mr Trump has his way, Americans will not be wearing half-moons, and at the risk of being seemingly hyperbolic, I am not sure that we could never see extermination camps. OTOH, I don't consider these things probable, but IMO Americans are not singularly virtuous, so I can't rule them out altogether. It would take an unlikely concatenation of circumstances, but it might be possible, and is more likely to be possible if Mr Trump is elected President. I freely admit, I find him impenetrable aside from the obvious surface narcissism and vitriol. Which of his many rants he believes, and which are just playing to the marks, I do not feel competent to judge (and I wonder if he knows himself). Which policies he would try to enact, what plans, if any, he has or is willing to entertain, remain opaque to me. Therefore, I have to assess him on what he has said, which is bad enough to concern me greatly about what the future will hold if he is elected.

I expect I am clear on the nuance here: I'm talking about highly improbable things. That they may be more probable with Trump in the WH makes them no less improbable, but instead poses a question of arithmetic that each must answer for himself: is the threat, however improbable, posed by Mr Trump greater than the indignity of being compelled to vote for a candidate with whom one has no sympathy? (Or is that threat greater than the threats, different as they are, posed by another candidate) Unlike arithmetic, of course, it is a question with no certain or absolute answer. But when one uses "conscience" in partial or complete defense of their answer, then I wonder what conscience is saying about the various candidates, and how its influence may differ among them.

-- Mal

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Voting One's Conscience [View all] malthaussen Mar 2016 OP
A vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote against Trump. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2016 #1
+100 peacebird Mar 2016 #2
The rationale applies only if one does vote in the GE. malthaussen Mar 2016 #4
+ 1000000000000 !!!!!!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #8
That would only be true in the following cases: MH1 Mar 2016 #18
You can come back and whine at me if Trump wins Ohio by one vote in the GE. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2016 #40
In the year 2000 hfojvt Mar 2016 #78
To support Hillary and her sellouts to corporations- marew Mar 2016 #60
That is technically true, but practically false. Adrahil Mar 2016 #33
That is "if you're not for us, you're against us" redux. Igel Mar 2016 #75
QED tk2kewl Mar 2016 #39
Amen.... daleanime Mar 2016 #81
Arithmatic says otherwise. Buzz cook Mar 2016 #105
Agree - 100% Laf.La.Dem. Mar 2016 #3
Third Way gives in to fear, and I'm afraid SHE means to blur the difference. orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #5
Not clear how this answers my question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #12
That risk runs both ways and though I trust her more than him, being Scared in to a vote is how we orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #59
My question, however, is concerned not with fear, but conscience. malthaussen Mar 2016 #61
Calling people for Bernie since July is a vote for my Conscience, Not supporting Hillary is orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #91
Except I haven't characterized anything as a lack of conscience. malthaussen Mar 2016 #92
That I understand and appreciate the question, You prefaced your question " Assuming " so orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #94
I always vote. For somebody. Shadowflash Mar 2016 #6
Bravo! fleur-de-lisa Mar 2016 #90
I won't vote for Trump or Hillary. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #7
Stipulated, but it doesn't answer the question. n/t malthaussen Mar 2016 #15
It does. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #17
Actually, you didn't. malthaussen Mar 2016 #22
Will that not be a vote against Trump? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #24
You might abstain from voting altogether. malthaussen Mar 2016 #28
What misundersting? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #37
No, I asked... malthaussen Mar 2016 #47
I have a conscience and I'm voting against Trump because of it. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #50
Certainly. malthaussen Mar 2016 #54
It does answer the question abelenkpe Mar 2016 #32
No, it doesn't, actually. malthaussen Mar 2016 #38
And that is where you are very wrong. TM99 Mar 2016 #49
I pray you keep civil. malthaussen Mar 2016 #52
You make the gross assumption TM99 Mar 2016 #58
No, actually I make no such assumption. malthaussen Mar 2016 #62
No your question was answered abelenkpe Mar 2016 #57
On the contrary, I am perfectly willing to accept it. malthaussen Mar 2016 #64
+1! n/t marew Mar 2016 #30
Ahh the lesser of two evils argument again! I am not moved. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #9
Argument? It was a question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #13
Its a just another veiled attempt Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #14
I had no idea you were the Shadow. malthaussen Mar 2016 #16
If you say so. Either way I am not voting Hillary. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #19
Which still doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #23
My view is which can do more damage. A corporate operative with the intent of Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #27
So your assessment is that Mr Trump is not, in fact, the candidate most to be feared? malthaussen Mar 2016 #34
Ok Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #51
then the greater evil will pervail WhiteTara Mar 2016 #29
Guess you should have run something other than a corporate operative to win. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #31
"I" didn't run anyone WhiteTara Mar 2016 #41
No, Trump is a buffoon in search of self aggrandizement. Clinton is after power for powers sake. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #53
Time will tell. WhiteTara Mar 2016 #67
Pretty much Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #89
Awful. Guess you should have run someone other than a corporate operative. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #10
I won't sit home... vi5 Mar 2016 #11
I'll cross the GE bridge when I get there. KentuckyWoman Mar 2016 #20
Then the question does not apply. malthaussen Mar 2016 #26
I MIGHT vote Hillary if she wins. It isn't guaranteed. KentuckyWoman Mar 2016 #36
The question is not about whom you will vote for. malthaussen Mar 2016 #43
You see the box they put us in each time, vote for a corporate sell out, or really get screwed Dustlawyer Mar 2016 #21
Which still doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #25
Some will vote their conscience, others will fall in line. Dustlawyer Mar 2016 #55
Still doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #56
Voting for something tazkcmo Mar 2016 #35
Stipulated, but it doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #44
No, it doesn't. tazkcmo Mar 2016 #45
I think it goes beyond conscience, mountain grammy Mar 2016 #42
Then the question does not apply... malthaussen Mar 2016 #46
The conscience thing bothers me too.. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #72
The answer can only be that they assess the situation differently. malthaussen Mar 2016 #76
This ... BlueMTexpat Mar 2016 #48
It is an amazing thing.. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #66
You've got your priorities BlueMTexpat Mar 2016 #93
"Conscience" in this context is a euphemism for narcissism Orrex Mar 2016 #63
Oddly enough, that may not be true in all cases. malthaussen Mar 2016 #65
That's a fair distinction Orrex Mar 2016 #68
I'd have to know more... malthaussen Mar 2016 #70
Mal I will answer this in another way nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #69
Rather than "more than expected," malthaussen Mar 2016 #74
I am nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #77
There are a couple of reasons someone might. aikoaiko Mar 2016 #71
Sure. malthaussen Mar 2016 #82
Why should Muslims and Mexicans be MY top concern? hfojvt Mar 2016 #73
Well, I make no suggestion that they should be your top concern. malthaussen Mar 2016 #83
you seemed to feel that it should be a concern hfojvt Mar 2016 #84
I'll suggest that prejudicial behavior... malthaussen Mar 2016 #87
If the Democratic party no longer represents the economic interests and social interests PatrickforO Mar 2016 #79
I should hope you would always vote for whom you please. malthaussen Mar 2016 #85
Risk assessment Kuroneko Mar 2016 #80
That's one of the things I am trying to get at. malthaussen Mar 2016 #88
If you put a Republican to my head and threaten to pull the trigger if I don't vote your way, do it. Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #86
And that's why Bernie would beat Donald, it's Wasserman, MSM and $$$$$ who have NO conscience who orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #95
No, the threat not to vote is intimidation. "They will tear everything down if Democrats don't Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #96
History repeating itself bhikkhu Mar 2016 #97
The point is relevant for those who saw it coming. malthaussen Mar 2016 #99
You shouldn't worry about purity voters. joshcryer Mar 2016 #98
In statistical terms, probably. malthaussen Mar 2016 #100
This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame cantbeserious Mar 2016 #101
I'm not interested in assessing blame. malthaussen Mar 2016 #102
This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame cantbeserious Mar 2016 #103
Say rather that they are your reasons. malthaussen Mar 2016 #104
You Asked For Reasons - You Got Reasons - Yours Or Otherwise cantbeserious Mar 2016 #106
Amen. 840high Mar 2016 #107
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