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In reply to the discussion: Voting One's Conscience [View all]

Igel

(37,483 posts)
75. That is "if you're not for us, you're against us" redux.
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 01:12 PM
Mar 2016

Try that with other things.

If you're not in favor of US victory in Vietnam, you're in favor of the N. Vietnamese re-education camps and totalitariasm.

If you're not in favor of US policy against ISIL, you're in favor of Yazidi genocide.

If you're against US intervention in Iraq in 2003, you're in favor of Saddam Hussein's repressive regime.

Moreover, it's not just a practical thing. It becomes a matter of conscience, with the claim that either you're an active fan and advocate of reeducation camps/genocide/repression or an avid advocate of US policy. The universe of choices and beliefs and values is reduced to two small, starkly opposed sets.

Many here have a problem with some of the Ukrainian nationalists. They see there are two options, the same two as in 1942. They can side with Stalin and the Red Army or they can side with Hitler and fascism. That was reality, those were the practical choices. Many made their choice. Now, those who sided against Stalin are condemned for their choice--forgotten is that when the Wehrmacht was in control of the Ukraine many of them fought the Germans, and that those "fascists" also took a pledge not to fight any Allied troops. Some fascists--racist, anti-Soviet, but "fascist" is a tough judgment to make. At the same time, the majority, those "good men" who took no side, stood by while "evil triumphed."

The problem is "reality" and "conscience" are different things, post-hoc judgment is different from judgments reached at the time, and, really, what we're arguing about is support now for something that a person does disagree with versus what might happen in the future. We always have the out that we didn't believe X.

After all, Obama promised a balanced budget by the end of his first term, but within seconds of being inaugurated decided that a permanent deficit was a good thing. He promised to close Gitmo in his first term, and found that he made a promise he was in no position to keep--and we'll assume he was ignorant and didn't know he couldn't keep it, not that he knew he couldn't keep it and pandered. (There is, in reality, no third choice.)


I like freedom of conscience. However, I believe in freedom of speech and the freedom not to speak in non-free contexts. I'm not free to speak my mind at work; I work in public schools. I'm not free to speak my mind here, at DU, because we have an end-user agreement of sorts. Moreover, in the interest of peace, and in keeping with longstanding Igel-family tradition, nobody ever says who they vote for. Or against.

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Voting One's Conscience [View all] malthaussen Mar 2016 OP
A vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote against Trump. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2016 #1
+100 peacebird Mar 2016 #2
The rationale applies only if one does vote in the GE. malthaussen Mar 2016 #4
+ 1000000000000 !!!!!!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #8
That would only be true in the following cases: MH1 Mar 2016 #18
You can come back and whine at me if Trump wins Ohio by one vote in the GE. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2016 #40
In the year 2000 hfojvt Mar 2016 #78
To support Hillary and her sellouts to corporations- marew Mar 2016 #60
That is technically true, but practically false. Adrahil Mar 2016 #33
That is "if you're not for us, you're against us" redux. Igel Mar 2016 #75
QED tk2kewl Mar 2016 #39
Amen.... daleanime Mar 2016 #81
Arithmatic says otherwise. Buzz cook Mar 2016 #105
Agree - 100% Laf.La.Dem. Mar 2016 #3
Third Way gives in to fear, and I'm afraid SHE means to blur the difference. orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #5
Not clear how this answers my question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #12
That risk runs both ways and though I trust her more than him, being Scared in to a vote is how we orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #59
My question, however, is concerned not with fear, but conscience. malthaussen Mar 2016 #61
Calling people for Bernie since July is a vote for my Conscience, Not supporting Hillary is orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #91
Except I haven't characterized anything as a lack of conscience. malthaussen Mar 2016 #92
That I understand and appreciate the question, You prefaced your question " Assuming " so orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #94
I always vote. For somebody. Shadowflash Mar 2016 #6
Bravo! fleur-de-lisa Mar 2016 #90
I won't vote for Trump or Hillary. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #7
Stipulated, but it doesn't answer the question. n/t malthaussen Mar 2016 #15
It does. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #17
Actually, you didn't. malthaussen Mar 2016 #22
Will that not be a vote against Trump? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #24
You might abstain from voting altogether. malthaussen Mar 2016 #28
What misundersting? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #37
No, I asked... malthaussen Mar 2016 #47
I have a conscience and I'm voting against Trump because of it. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #50
Certainly. malthaussen Mar 2016 #54
It does answer the question abelenkpe Mar 2016 #32
No, it doesn't, actually. malthaussen Mar 2016 #38
And that is where you are very wrong. TM99 Mar 2016 #49
I pray you keep civil. malthaussen Mar 2016 #52
You make the gross assumption TM99 Mar 2016 #58
No, actually I make no such assumption. malthaussen Mar 2016 #62
No your question was answered abelenkpe Mar 2016 #57
On the contrary, I am perfectly willing to accept it. malthaussen Mar 2016 #64
+1! n/t marew Mar 2016 #30
Ahh the lesser of two evils argument again! I am not moved. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #9
Argument? It was a question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #13
Its a just another veiled attempt Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #14
I had no idea you were the Shadow. malthaussen Mar 2016 #16
If you say so. Either way I am not voting Hillary. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #19
Which still doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #23
My view is which can do more damage. A corporate operative with the intent of Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #27
So your assessment is that Mr Trump is not, in fact, the candidate most to be feared? malthaussen Mar 2016 #34
Ok Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #51
then the greater evil will pervail WhiteTara Mar 2016 #29
Guess you should have run something other than a corporate operative to win. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #31
"I" didn't run anyone WhiteTara Mar 2016 #41
No, Trump is a buffoon in search of self aggrandizement. Clinton is after power for powers sake. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #53
Time will tell. WhiteTara Mar 2016 #67
Pretty much Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #89
Awful. Guess you should have run someone other than a corporate operative. Katashi_itto Mar 2016 #10
I won't sit home... vi5 Mar 2016 #11
I'll cross the GE bridge when I get there. KentuckyWoman Mar 2016 #20
Then the question does not apply. malthaussen Mar 2016 #26
I MIGHT vote Hillary if she wins. It isn't guaranteed. KentuckyWoman Mar 2016 #36
The question is not about whom you will vote for. malthaussen Mar 2016 #43
You see the box they put us in each time, vote for a corporate sell out, or really get screwed Dustlawyer Mar 2016 #21
Which still doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #25
Some will vote their conscience, others will fall in line. Dustlawyer Mar 2016 #55
Still doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #56
Voting for something tazkcmo Mar 2016 #35
Stipulated, but it doesn't answer the question. malthaussen Mar 2016 #44
No, it doesn't. tazkcmo Mar 2016 #45
I think it goes beyond conscience, mountain grammy Mar 2016 #42
Then the question does not apply... malthaussen Mar 2016 #46
The conscience thing bothers me too.. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #72
The answer can only be that they assess the situation differently. malthaussen Mar 2016 #76
This ... BlueMTexpat Mar 2016 #48
It is an amazing thing.. mountain grammy Mar 2016 #66
You've got your priorities BlueMTexpat Mar 2016 #93
"Conscience" in this context is a euphemism for narcissism Orrex Mar 2016 #63
Oddly enough, that may not be true in all cases. malthaussen Mar 2016 #65
That's a fair distinction Orrex Mar 2016 #68
I'd have to know more... malthaussen Mar 2016 #70
Mal I will answer this in another way nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #69
Rather than "more than expected," malthaussen Mar 2016 #74
I am nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #77
There are a couple of reasons someone might. aikoaiko Mar 2016 #71
Sure. malthaussen Mar 2016 #82
Why should Muslims and Mexicans be MY top concern? hfojvt Mar 2016 #73
Well, I make no suggestion that they should be your top concern. malthaussen Mar 2016 #83
you seemed to feel that it should be a concern hfojvt Mar 2016 #84
I'll suggest that prejudicial behavior... malthaussen Mar 2016 #87
If the Democratic party no longer represents the economic interests and social interests PatrickforO Mar 2016 #79
I should hope you would always vote for whom you please. malthaussen Mar 2016 #85
Risk assessment Kuroneko Mar 2016 #80
That's one of the things I am trying to get at. malthaussen Mar 2016 #88
If you put a Republican to my head and threaten to pull the trigger if I don't vote your way, do it. Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #86
And that's why Bernie would beat Donald, it's Wasserman, MSM and $$$$$ who have NO conscience who orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #95
No, the threat not to vote is intimidation. "They will tear everything down if Democrats don't Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #96
History repeating itself bhikkhu Mar 2016 #97
The point is relevant for those who saw it coming. malthaussen Mar 2016 #99
You shouldn't worry about purity voters. joshcryer Mar 2016 #98
In statistical terms, probably. malthaussen Mar 2016 #100
This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame cantbeserious Mar 2016 #101
I'm not interested in assessing blame. malthaussen Mar 2016 #102
This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame cantbeserious Mar 2016 #103
Say rather that they are your reasons. malthaussen Mar 2016 #104
You Asked For Reasons - You Got Reasons - Yours Or Otherwise cantbeserious Mar 2016 #106
Amen. 840high Mar 2016 #107
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