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drokhole

(1,230 posts)
160. THE COMPLEX NATURE OF GMOS CALLS FOR A NEW CONVERSATION
Tue Mar 8, 2016, 04:01 PM
Mar 2016
THE COMPLEX NATURE OF GMOS CALLS FOR A NEW CONVERSATION
from Ensia



October 7, 2015 — The GMO debate is one from which I’ve kept a purposeful distance.

For one thing, it’s an issue that has already garnered more than its fair share of attention. For another, when you consider that many domesticated crops resulted from seed irradiation, chromosome doubling and plant tissue culture — none of which are genetically engineered — the boundaries of “natural” are more porous than they initially appear.

But I study seed science and policy, in which genetically engineered organisms — more often referred to as genetically modified organisms, aka GMOs — are pervasive, so it’s an issue I cannot ignore. Most recently, the director of a science communications program asked if I could engage her students on a few topics: Is there a scientific consensus on GMOs? How is the media doing when it comes to covering biotech in the food system? Where are the biases and blind spots in reporting?

Swapping emails, we discussed the retraction of a study on “golden rice,” a Slate feature calling the war against GMOs “full of fearmongering, errors, and fraud,” and the infamous tangle among Vandana Shiva, David Remnick and Michael Specter in the aftermath of “Seeds of Doubt,” a critical New Yorker profile of Shiva’s crusade against genetically modified crops. (Read Shiva’s response to the profile, and Remnick’s counter response.) Anyone who examines these stories will appreciate the thicket of fact, interpretation and framing that makes the GMO terrain explosive.

Let me begin with a frank admission: I am a proponent of agroecology, food sovereignty, and the rights of farmers to save and reproduce their seed. But I am not anti-GMO. In agreement with my colleagues at various universities and non-governmental organizations, I believe that some GM crops could have some benefits. What I object to is a lack of complex evaluations of the technology, the overzealous selling of its benefits and the framing of cautionary skeptics as anti-science scaremongers. The tendency to treat GMOs in isolation from their historical, social and political contexts is also of no help: The technology was developed as a tool to enhance the scope and scale of industrial agriculture. I don’t argue that GMOs cannot be — and never will be — extricated from that context, but that discussion is very different from the more common debate about health benefits or risks.

Why do the merits or demerits of GMOs grab more headline space than systemic food and agriculture concerns? Can we get past what Jonathan Foley calls the “silver bullet” and reductionist thinking on this issue? As a molecular biologist turned science journalist turned social scientist, I’ve been puzzling over these questions for some 15 years. What I’ve come to realize is that GMO stories point to deeper struggles over how science is conducted, interpreted and deployed in the arena of “sustainable food.”

...more at http://ensia.com/voices/the-complex-nature-of-gmos-calls-for-a-new-conversation/


One of the most comprehensive I've come across, but added to it a bit of a lengthy response/addition:

Yes! It's stuff like this that the myopic/hyper-focus on GM overshadows and blocks out from the debate. Its become less about the problem (drought, yield, pest and disease-resistance, nutritional content, etc...), and almost exclusively about the wonders of GMOs. They can't tease apart the "wonders" (which are simply the idealized solution...which often times does still ignore the greater environmental context) from the GMO. Proponents forget, the purpose shouldn't be to cheer lead GMOs, it's about better addressing and resolving these issues - and they fail to question (or investigate) whether GMOs are the best way to achieve those results.

For example, they think they can simply splice in a gene to make a crop drought resistant, rather than, say, building porous soil rich in organic matter that increases rates of water absorption and leads to vastly larger stores of water retained (particular in times of low rainfall) - which itself often includes mixed stocking of crops and animals (among a host of other techniques). Or that pest resistance again comes down to adding another gene, rather than building the plants own existing defenses (again, through a robust soil teeming with biodiversity) and attracting and encouraging beneficial predators with a healthy and biodiverse landscape. It actually speaks largely to an all-too-common reductionist (not to mention "gene-centric&quot approach across the sciences - we've lost sight of (or simply failed to identify in the first place) the mutualistic relationships of nature.

Here, mycologist Paul Stamets describes one such relationship between a grass, mychorriza fungi, and a virus that allows the grass to grow and thrive in an environment with extreme temperatures (should be cued up around 23:42...if it isn't, skip ahead to that time):

Paul Stamets and John B. Wells - Mushrooms & Environment
?t=23m42s

You can't just genetically modify that into existence, you have to foster the relationship. It, in my opinion, is a much more advanced science/technique than the myopic "gene for every mean" approach. Which is why it's not only disingenuous, but exceedingly patronizing and insulting, for people like the NYT's Amy Harmon to throw around "anti-science" accusations and seedy equivocations. It not only falsely frames the terms of the debate (thus cementing positions and automatically granting one side an imagined intellectual high-ground), it ignores good science itself:

Organic agriculture: deeply rooted in science and ecology

Like farmer Joel Salatin says:

"Of course I think I’m using science, but so does Monsanto. And so the question is whose science will be used as a regulatory foundation and enforcement action? It won't be pasture-based livestock, compost and symbiosis through multispeciation. It will be further animal abuse, chemicals and pathogen-friendly protocols."


Further, problems like malnutrition (like Vitamin-A deficiency) involve a myriad of issues, including the physical (involving a broader lack of a complex of dietary fats and nutrients...which are actually required for proper absorption of Vitamin A) and the socio-politico-economical. GM-opia ignores the scope of the issues and smacks of simplistic solutionism.

Final thought, I'd even challenge the thought that "most" of the GMOs are safe to eat. Particularly those that exist in actual fact today. Reason being, almost no thought (and certainly hardly any study, particularly from the industry) has gone into considering the effects of these foods on our microbiome - those trillions of bacteria and other micro-organisms that live on and within our bodies (a large portion of which are in the gut), that are crucial in not only keeping us healthy but alive in the first place. One reason for this is we are only beginning to discover, realize, and appreciate just how crucial these critters are to health and well-being, with functions ranging from digesting and deriving nutrients in our food, to fighting off pathogens and regulating/boosting our immune-system. In fact, it is those very bugs in our guts we have to worry about when it comes to GMOs - not only when it comes to the chemical pesticides that the plants are engineered to withstand, but especially those "modified" with Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) within the plant itself. Plenty of our "modern" disease epidemics seem to be rooted in inflammation stemming from gut/GI issues...and it could very well be that these "foods"/ingredients derived from them are contributing to that problem in large degree (and I seem to recall some preliminary findings hinting at such).

On a somewhat related (and equally fascinating) note, George Monbiot points out how - through a process dubbed "trophic cascade" - wolves can in fact change the course of rivers:

How Wolves Change Rivers


And, on a similar note, we see how "whales effect climate":

How Whales Change Climate


Also, the importance of keystone species like beavers:

The Plan to Make California Wet By Bringing Back Beavers

Scientists Acquire More Proof That Only Beavers Can Save the World

And starfish:

The Ecologist Who Threw Starfish

Additional material:

An Essential Citizen’s Guide to the Truth About GM Crops and Food

“Using peer-reviewed studies and other documented evidence, GMO Myths and Truths deconstructs the false and misleading claims that are frequently made about the safety and efficacy of GM crops and foods. The book shows that far from being necessary to feed the world, GM crops are a risky distraction from the real causes of hunger. What is more, there is no reason to take this risk, since GM crops do not consistently raise yields, reduce pesticide use, or provide more nutritious food. GM crops and foods have not been shown to be safe to eat – and both animal feeding studies and non-animal laboratory experiments indicate that some GM foods, as well as most of the chemicals required to produce them, are toxic. Fortunately, the book shows that there are effective and sustainable alternatives to GM that can ensure a safe and plentiful food supply for current and future populations. GMO Myths and Truths is an invaluable and easy-to-read resource for everyone, including students, scientists, and members of the general public.”--David Schubert, PhD, Professor and Director, Cellular Neurobiology, Salk Institute for Biological Studies, La Jolla, California, USA

and

Genes, Organism, and Environment with Richard Lewontin

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

More. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #1
Thanks for the links nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #2
All harmless. longship Mar 2016 #7
There is a vast difference between plant breeding and gene splicing / genetic modification (GMOs). PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #8
The line of demarcation is fuzzy. longship Mar 2016 #11
You are wrong. PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #13
Please....the only authority on the matter bkkyosemite Mar 2016 #52
The shill gambit. How clever. Nailzberg Mar 2016 #18
I've seen ignorant posts at DU... ellenrr Mar 2016 #24
What an insulting response! longship Mar 2016 #67
Is that why full bred dogs don't live as long? immoderate Mar 2016 #55
Full bred dogs don't live long because of inbreeding. longship Mar 2016 #79
They also have genetic traits that prevent natural birth, and cause discomfort immoderate Mar 2016 #87
Or children who might otherwise go blind. longship Mar 2016 #94
Some genetic engineering is justified. Golden Rice ain't it. immoderate Mar 2016 #98
Do you mean other than kids going blind? longship Mar 2016 #100
Give 'em a carrot! immoderate Mar 2016 #102
Maybe carrots don't grow in Asia. Golden rice does. longship Mar 2016 #103
I am not aware of any place that has counteracted Vitamin A deficiencies with Golden Rice. immoderate Mar 2016 #105
Okay. Here is a balanced treatment of the topic. longship Mar 2016 #107
The pieces you presented are science fiction. immoderate Mar 2016 #110
Science is a bitch, my friend. longship Mar 2016 #113
There is no peer reviewed paper that states they're safe either. immoderate Mar 2016 #116
The Seralini paper has been universally slammed! longship Mar 2016 #119
Labels? Where is the line of demarcation? longship Mar 2016 #127
Where do you get the idea that all scientists think GMOs are safe? immoderate Mar 2016 #128
It is not up to me to prove genetic modification safe. longship Mar 2016 #130
You don't know about science. Stop speaking for it. Stop invoking ghosts. You don't know me. immoderate Mar 2016 #131
Genetic modification has been shown to be safe. longship Mar 2016 #139
Shown to be safe -- where? immoderate Mar 2016 #140
Yet again, the burden of proof is on the deniers. longship Mar 2016 #141
Total Rubbish nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #143
Put up, or shut up! longship Mar 2016 #144
So you are a linear thinker. Pleiotropy? immoderate Mar 2016 #146
I love it when you talk dirty to me. longship Mar 2016 #150
Can't even watch a video, eh? Your facts are in error or very misleading and cause me to ask who is Kip Humphrey Mar 2016 #66
Who? The Social Security Administration, that's who. longship Mar 2016 #68
"What would it take to change your position?" I'll start when my botonist wife informs me otherwise. Kip Humphrey Mar 2016 #72
Aha! Argument from authority. longship Mar 2016 #75
Get your 'botonist' wife to tell you how to spell her profession muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #83
Wow. Pettiness AND rudeness. I'm glad I don't live nearby! Kip Humphrey Mar 2016 #84
Rude? Nothing rude there. muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #86
Oh, goodness. HuckleB Mar 2016 #136
Monsanto makes up fake science. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #104
Monsanto == very little of genetic modification research. longship Mar 2016 #108
Many university research is now either fully or partially funded by the industry who whants the Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #109
yes and the glyphosate that goes along with GMOs is safe too (sarcasm) wordpix Mar 2016 #164
What is this fixation on glyphosate? longship Mar 2016 #168
GMO's- the biggest scientific fraud of our age nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #3
Steven Druker? Are you serious? Archae Mar 2016 #4
Check it out. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #12
Perhaps you should... nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #22
Oooo fun. Let's play the deflection game. progressoid Mar 2016 #30
Long term animal feeding studies, the gold standard for demonstrating safety, do not exist. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #41
Actually they do exist... progressoid Mar 2016 #59
Check search engine at homepage of http://www.gmwatch.org/ for objective vetting of research/news. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #64
Bwahahaha. The first link I clicked on went to a Seralini study. progressoid Mar 2016 #71
Try these 3 analyses/critiques. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #74
Answered progressoid Mar 2016 #77
“Generation Rx” - it's all a big mystery. Food allergies affect 1 in 13 children in the US... proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #97
Study suggests potential association between "soy formula" & seizures in children w autism (3/13/14) proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #112
"we can’t say that this is cause and effect" progressoid Mar 2016 #121
True. However, enough is unknown currently to justify caution, IMO. You may decide differently.(nt) proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #126
The feedlot studies are not scientific. They are worthless. immoderate Mar 2016 #90
What kind of studies would it take? progressoid Mar 2016 #118
Cite ONE of those 1783 studies that concludes GMOs are safe. immoderate Mar 2016 #122
Cite one study that concludes they are dangerous. progressoid Mar 2016 #123
OK, one is Pusztai. Now you go. immoderate Mar 2016 #125
So we are using flawed studies? progressoid Mar 2016 #132
Your turn. Post an unflawed study in response. You got one? Beuhler? immoderate Mar 2016 #133
It's not arguable. It is flawed, and it ruined his career. progressoid Mar 2016 #134
I gave you one. You give me one to chew on. immoderate Mar 2016 #135
there are plenty of yogis who have high levels of education and achievement wordpix Mar 2016 #165
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #5
Heck, I've seen more actual science from creationists. Archae Mar 2016 #6
the gmo cancer lawsuits are coming big time womanofthehills Mar 2016 #37
No wonder you left the URL off... Archae Mar 2016 #46
Excellent post Johnny2X2X Mar 2016 #82
All you gmo defenders can eat all the gmos you want, many of us make a choice not to. We have the Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #9
There are zero credible studies that show anything harmful or any adverse health effects True Earthling Mar 2016 #10
Yeah, everything's fine for everybody. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #14
Don't blame GMO's...blame cigarettes, alcohol, poor diet & lack of exercise etc True Earthling Mar 2016 #15
You're not seriously blaming autism on GMOs. progressoid Mar 2016 #16
Everyone knows that ingestion of cheese can lead to restless sleep. Especially, if the cheese... yawnmaster Mar 2016 #20
Full disclosure. I eat both cow and goat cheeses. progressoid Mar 2016 #28
You are very wise to take those precautions if you are going to keep eating cheese. eom yawnmaster Mar 2016 #73
I'm simply advocating for applying the Precautionary Principle. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #21
When you keep posting autism links, that is more than advocating for the Precautionary Principle. progressoid Mar 2016 #25
You can always tell when someone's catapulting the propaganda Orrex Mar 2016 #27
Yesteryear, vaccines caused Autism, and now GMO's do. Lancero Mar 2016 #26
It was also power lines, too. NEVER FORGET! Orrex Mar 2016 #29
Remember when cell phone were killing bees? progressoid Mar 2016 #124
Epigenetics. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #38
That PDF says nothing about genetically modified organisms Orrex Mar 2016 #154
True, it's implicit: "...eat high nutrient density food; avoid junk food, allergens, toxicants..." proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #161
Gish gallop Orrex Mar 2016 #162
FOOD ALLERGIES are sufficient. Pivot away from the rest if you choose not to be ahead of the curve. proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #174
Gish gallop Orrex Mar 2016 #175
National Acad of Sciences: "genetic transformation has potential to produce unanticipated allergens" proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #176
Gish gallop Orrex Mar 2016 #177
Just saw this -> 3/8/16: "USDA Called Out by 50 Groups for Censoring Science" proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #179
ibid Orrex Mar 2016 #180
+1 excellent thanks for posting nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #163
Rock-n-Roll causes devil worship too Major Nikon Mar 2016 #53
Well sure. It's right there in the song... progressoid Mar 2016 #61
So does this mean you've given up on your "vaccines cause autism" shtick? Major Nikon Mar 2016 #49
Here's how retiring NVICP Special Master Denise K. Vowell stated it in Wright v HHS - 9/21/15 (ii). proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #65
I'll take that as a yes Major Nikon Mar 2016 #78
Not counting the millions... CanSocDem Mar 2016 #31
Science requires proof... not faith. True Earthling Mar 2016 #33
And yet people still have faith in science.. LanternWaste Mar 2016 #47
Wait a minute... trotsky Mar 2016 #36
Obtuse R us. CanSocDem Mar 2016 #40
Aha, so if we don't label GMOs... trotsky Mar 2016 #42
What are you talking about? CanSocDem Mar 2016 #45
So you admit consumption of food plays a role in disease? trotsky Mar 2016 #48
Duh...(eom) CanSocDem Mar 2016 #50
Fantastic. trotsky Mar 2016 #57
Roundup and non-Hodgkin lymphoma womanofthehills Mar 2016 #39
So are you saying the World Health Organization is not credible womanofthehills Mar 2016 #44
Seems pretty straightforward Major Nikon Mar 2016 #56
The WHO agrees with me...GMO foods are safe... True Earthling Mar 2016 #69
The feed lot studies you cite are not scientific. Those animals are raised on antibiotics. immoderate Mar 2016 #62
then why aren't you fighting to label all breeding methods? Nailzberg Mar 2016 #19
We al have the RIGHT TO KNOW how our food is grown, what is in it, what animals are fed, what Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #106
+2 exactly nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #23
The only ones being 'sneaky" or "secret" are the organic lobby. Archae Mar 2016 #34
WHO says probable human carcinogen womanofthehills Mar 2016 #43
Water is a "probable carcinogen." Archae Mar 2016 #51
They also put coffee and aspirin in the same category Major Nikon Mar 2016 #63
Why don't Druker and his buddies at the Maharishi Institute just meditate this problem away. progressoid Mar 2016 #17
Meticulously researched, highly informative AxionExcel Mar 2016 #32
"Meticulously researched, highly informative" Archae Mar 2016 #35
Actually organic food is not expensive womanofthehills Mar 2016 #54
Have you read the book? AxionExcel Mar 2016 #58
Are the health outcomes comparable? Paraphrasing Springsteen,"It's hard to be a saint in the city." proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #178
Certainly not the fake science book in the OP Bonx Mar 2016 #70
I'm willing to wager* a giant imperial gallon of glyphosate that AxionExcel Mar 2016 #76
Sure, because the one sided book you keep harping on is the end all on the subject Major Nikon Mar 2016 #81
Oh, so you are yet another critic who has not read the book... AxionExcel Mar 2016 #85
So are you claiming the book isn't one sided? Major Nikon Mar 2016 #89
I'm merely observing that horde of "critics" on this thread has not read the book AxionExcel Mar 2016 #115
I didn't ask bout no horde Major Nikon Mar 2016 #117
You vill desist! 0-7 jury sez someone has hurt feelers ... ebayfool Mar 2016 #91
Gee, I wonder who that was? Major Nikon Mar 2016 #93
I got a laugh out of it ... ebayfool Mar 2016 #95
Why would I read a fake science book ? Bonx Mar 2016 #114
Why would anyone condemn something they know nothing about? AxionExcel Mar 2016 #167
No Idea. I read the reviews. It's fake science from an attorney. Bonx Mar 2016 #171
Yes there sre some massive, world-changing side effects of this stuff whatthehey Mar 2016 #60
The first GMO food was not sold until 1994 so the drop in global death rate PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #137
The OP specified the timeframe, and we sure see a nice drop after the 1990s too... whatthehey Mar 2016 #148
Your own link proves you are confused on the subject Major Nikon Mar 2016 #157
Either you are not understanding what I wrote or you are confused. Also see posts #3 and #8 above. PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #158
I'm not sure your clarification helps much Major Nikon Mar 2016 #159
The Climate Change Deniers of the Left Johnny2X2X Mar 2016 #80
Interesting coincidence AxionExcel Mar 2016 #88
So you think they thought of it first? Major Nikon Mar 2016 #92
Heck, I still remember when I challenged astrology buffs here. Archae Mar 2016 #96
When the usual suspects all say those who disagree are part of the conspiracy Major Nikon Mar 2016 #99
Seriously? Archae Mar 2016 #120
Top experts (Herbert, Mumper) recommend "a whole food diet that is as organic as possible." proverbialwisdom Mar 2016 #129
This is the untalked about scandal of the century. n/t Skwmom Mar 2016 #101
Wow. I can only imagine the mad googlers in this thread with many windows opened Rex Mar 2016 #111
I used wiki in the 3 posts I made in this thread. PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #138
GMOs aren't fundamentally different from traditional plant breeding Major Nikon Mar 2016 #145
This is wrong - "GMOs aren't fundamentally different from traditional plant breeding" PufPuf23 Mar 2016 #149
Well you certainly make a convincing argument Major Nikon Mar 2016 #151
From the forward by Jane Goodall nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #142
Reading this thread... CanSocDem Mar 2016 #147
Fear over reason... Buzz Clik Mar 2016 #153
I ate GMO food and died. Buzz Clik Mar 2016 #152
GMO made the hens stop laying and now the cows won't milk Major Nikon Mar 2016 #155
And Monsanto just laughed. Buzz Clik Mar 2016 #156
THE COMPLEX NATURE OF GMOS CALLS FOR A NEW CONVERSATION drokhole Mar 2016 #160
Great post. CanSocDem Mar 2016 #170
Long term study shows the harm GMO diet causes AxionExcel Mar 2016 #166
GMO Boosters, Inc.: DO NOT READ THIS STUDY AxionExcel Mar 2016 #169
Seems the paper has been widely discredited Bradical79 Mar 2016 #172
The fact that the poster doesn't know the reality about that "study" is astounding. HuckleB Mar 2016 #173
From chapter 13: The Devolution of Scientists into Spin Doctors nationalize the fed Mar 2016 #181
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