General Discussion

Bucky

(55,334 posts)

175. Sure, there are DOZENS of non-religious ethical systems, but all are pre-dated by religious ones

Thu Mar 24, 2016, 05:13 PM

Mar 2016

People who come up with non-religious ethical systems are doing so in societies that already have religion-based ethical systems which, for a variety of causes, no longer serve the morality of their adherents. But where does that sense of right and wrong come from? Invariably it's rooted in previous ethical systems whose adherents or leaders, for whatever reasons, are failing to live up to their own standards. Those who reject religion as a foundation for morality--and there are plenty of them--do so because religions become about self preservation of power & influence. Which is to say, they quit living by the moral standards these religions themselves have inculcated in society. The branches may be corrupt, but the roots still run to the same ground.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

198 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Why the double standard with Abrahamic religion? [View all] Matrosov Mar 2016 OP

Because Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #1

and (4) They know Muslims as neighbors and coworkers and like them Warpy Mar 2016 #6

Exactly bravenak Mar 2016 #29

People also have Christian or Jewish neighbors and coworkers Matrosov Mar 2016 #71

I see nothing hysterical in that post. Nichevo11 Mar 2016 #95

"Some of my best friends are?" Warpy Mar 2016 #104

I responded directly to your preceding post, Nichevo11 Mar 2016 #108

You summed that up much more concisely than Marr Mar 2016 #15

THIS!!!!! get the red out Mar 2016 #101

Intelligent vs. stupid is not a double standard. HassleCat Mar 2016 #2

Not when it's the religions themselves which make people violent Albertoo Mar 2016 #4

You mean like Christianity? Warpy Mar 2016 #8

Christianity too is loony, yes, why do you ask? Albertoo Mar 2016 #11

This message was self-deleted by its author BlueSpot Mar 2016 #24

Thing is, Fred Phelps will never have real power in the US. Marr Mar 2016 #16

That's for sure. He is dead. HERVEPA Mar 2016 #34

You just made the OP's point leftynyc Mar 2016 #62

Thank you. cwydro Mar 2016 #86

Going off the rails is what they're instructed to do Matrosov Mar 2016 #70

"off the rails" trotsky Mar 2016 #82

plenty of them. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2016 #180

Agreed. All Abrahamic religions are horrible at their core. killbotfactory Mar 2016 #3

Yep. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is horrible stuff. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #9

Yeah, because those are the ONLY beliefs Christianity pushes, right? Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #27

I was thinking more of the explicit endorsement of genocide, slavery, homophobia, and misogyny. nt killbotfactory Mar 2016 #53

Ah yes. What's that Gospel verse where Jesus condemns homosexuals? Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #55

Christianity is more than the gospels. nt killbotfactory Mar 2016 #56

Leviticus Matrosov Mar 2016 #72

To me the Old Testament is a load of fire-and-brimstone nonsense. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #73

Key words in your post: "To me" trotsky Mar 2016 #84

Which major religion do you think is the most homophobic? (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #88

Punting on my challenge, eh? I understand. trotsky Mar 2016 #90

Difficult to decide Matrosov Mar 2016 #193

It is your co-religionists who need reminding of that most whatthehey Mar 2016 #89

Ah. Paulians. Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #106

Where did Jesus condemn the biblical laws against homosexuality that were in place at the time? killbotfactory Mar 2016 #110

Jesus never condemned hacking into computer systems. trotsky Mar 2016 #146

Hackers didn't exist back then. Homosexuals did. killbotfactory Mar 2016 #171

Even though you are correct Matrosov Mar 2016 #194

Millions of dead indigenous people wished that Christians would have "turned the other cheek." a la izquierda Mar 2016 #80

Yep, the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades come up regularly in these threads. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #83

How about the IRA, then. REP Mar 2016 #167

If the UK happened to be a Catholic country the Irish would still have wanted the British out. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #169

Ha ha ha ha ha REP Mar 2016 #170

Hmmmm. That's a thought-provoking rebuttal. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #172

Maybe has something to do with the fact Muslims are a targeted minority in the US. Scootaloo Mar 2016 #5

True. Criticism of religions gets mixed up with socio-political issues. Albertoo Mar 2016 #13

It's totally unfair to criticize the 1.6 billion Muslims for the actions of Binkie The Clown Mar 2016 #49

I'm sure screaming about Islam on DU really shows 'em. n/t Scootaloo Mar 2016 #50

I'm quite sure that saying anything about anything on DU is utterly pointless... Binkie The Clown Mar 2016 #52

10% of 1.6B is 160M not 160K FreedomRain Mar 2016 #54

What makes an extremist to you? Advocating stoning to death for adultery? muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #96

Yes FreedomRain Mar 2016 #109

Yes, the maths definitely didn't work muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #112

Did you mean 160 Million extremists? FrodosPet Mar 2016 #61

Thats some pretty bad math you got there philosslayer Mar 2016 #98

Well put. It's OK to be religio-phobic Albertoo Mar 2016 #7

Well.... they do add some value once in a while. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #10

I wouldn't credit religion for that Albertoo Mar 2016 #12

so it is pure accident that some of the largest charities in the world are religious charities. kwassa Mar 2016 #47

It is a legacy of times when everyone (had to) believe(d) Albertoo Mar 2016 #48

Catholic Charities is still one of the very largest charities in the US. kwassa Mar 2016 #93

Because up to very recently, most Americans were believers Albertoo Mar 2016 #125

which means that 78% are still believers. kwassa Mar 2016 #137

Sure, there still will be believers for some time to come. Albertoo Mar 2016 #141

"Religions have no demonstrated value added to this world" kwassa Mar 2016 #18

Actually, slavers stood on firmer ground, Biblically speaking, than did the Marr Mar 2016 #20

Bullshit. This is simply your assertion. kwassa Mar 2016 #23

The Bible condones slavery. Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #28

Not exactly. kwassa Mar 2016 #36

The Bible unambiguously condones slavery. Marr Mar 2016 #57

I just gave you an example that showed how it came down on both sides kwassa Mar 2016 #94

I don't think you did at all. Marr Mar 2016 #100

Sorry, your idea that slavers are on firmer biblical ground is your personal interpretation. kwassa Mar 2016 #136

If the Bible is, as you claim, ambiguous on the subject of slavery... Marr Mar 2016 #149

No. Your litmus test is not my litmus test. kwassa Mar 2016 #158

My litmus test is dispassionate logic and honest reading of the Bible's very plain words. Marr Mar 2016 #161

Your litmus test is subjectively yours. kwassa Mar 2016 #168

No, statements like this are not subjective: Marr Mar 2016 #173

I have a Maundy Thursday service to go to. kwassa Mar 2016 #174

The bible can "condone" whatever you need it to condone Scootaloo Mar 2016 #41

I can promise you, folks that keep their belief system away from my neck are okay. Rex Mar 2016 #14

I'm not Islamophobic...I disrespct all religions. brooklynite Mar 2016 #17

I do to, all around the world. I believe people tend to hope more then despair. Rex Mar 2016 #19

AND away from my pu**y! zigby Mar 2016 #58

Good point seanjoycek476 Mar 2016 #21

All religion harms humanity. nt valerief Mar 2016 #22

Some seem to harm humanity on a more regular basis than others (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #25

In this country, Christianity has been a scourge. Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #30

Wrong, again. kwassa Mar 2016 #44

While I agree that some has been damaging nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #183

they're all nuttery Skittles Mar 2016 #26

Religion needs a good ass kicking. Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #31

especially the radicalized Episcopalians Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #85

There would be no Western civilization without religion. kwassa Mar 2016 #32

Bull. Moral behavior does not come from religion. Ridiculous. HERVEPA Mar 2016 #35

Which is why religion spends so much time teaching it ..... kwassa Mar 2016 #37

Studies have shown atheists to be on average more moral than religionists HERVEPA Mar 2016 #39

So you assert. kwassa Mar 2016 #45

Here you go. There are a ton more of these. HERVEPA Mar 2016 #64

Tell me... Marr Mar 2016 #60

Not taken literally, but taken seriously. kwassa Mar 2016 #92

Right and wrong should be and generally is innate. Religion mostly just tries to control people. HERVEPA Mar 2016 #99

That's your opinion. kwassa Mar 2016 #140

Well, thank you for your generosity, oh beneficent one. HERVEPA Mar 2016 #179

Anytime kwassa Mar 2016 #189

Literally, seriously, use any word you like. Marr Mar 2016 #103

Ahh... TipTok Mar 2016 #121

What part of the your religion-teaches-morality model truebluegreen Mar 2016 #135

The part where the priests don't follow that morality. kwassa Mar 2016 #138

So the church deserves credit for what men do truebluegreen Mar 2016 #182

Incorrect. Scootaloo Mar 2016 #40

Since we both like words, I fear you inverted morals and ethics ;) Albertoo Mar 2016 #43

Yep even animals can show basic compassion and empathy. zigby Mar 2016 #59

fact free arguments are still fact free no matter how angry you get Bucky Mar 2016 #87

Yeah, that's not true... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #155

Sure, there are DOZENS of non-religious ethical systems, but all are pre-dated by religious ones Bucky Mar 2016 #175

Not every religion has a preexisting ethical system attached to them... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #177

LOL Skittles Mar 2016 #63

I'd dispute that religion was "a unifying and universal structure" for the Roman civilisation muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #102

I was actually thinking of later years in Europe. .. kwassa Mar 2016 #159

Which religion? Current Western civilization is largely a sprout that started with the Roman... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #156

You can speculate to your heart's content ... kwassa Mar 2016 #160

Uh, what am i missing? Are not these three religions Abrahamic?? Didn't all stem from Jitter65 Mar 2016 #33

I'm not sure what you're missing Matrosov Mar 2016 #132

US has dropped 23,000 bombs in 7 Muslim countries in 2015 kcjohn1 Mar 2016 #38

Since when are the actions of the US Government guided by religion? Albertoo Mar 2016 #42

Maybe we should ask Lt. Gen William Boykin Orrex Mar 2016 #65

That's all you've got? A general who's been reprimanded at that? Albertoo Mar 2016 #68

All you got is an irrelevant and ignored 250 year old treaty Orrex Mar 2016 #69

An international treaty by the US governement, written by its founding fathers Albertoo Mar 2016 #74

Sure, except in theory, practice and reality Orrex Mar 2016 #78

I've got international treaties plus the Constitution (the wall of separation) Albertoo Mar 2016 #81

"The wall of separation" is not in the Constitution Orrex Mar 2016 #91

Actually the Supreme Court has cited Jefferson's "wall of separation" phrase several times Bucky Mar 2016 #122

I suspect that knowing you in real life is akin to having some kind of hemorrhaging lesion Orrex Mar 2016 #127

!!!! Bucky Mar 2016 #128

Onward, Christian soldier. Orrex Mar 2016 #131

Although Orrex is terribly wrong in this conversation, that treaty isn't a valid example Bucky Mar 2016 #120

I would agree relying on the Tripoli Treaty alone is stretching things a bit Albertoo Mar 2016 #133

"roughly half of which were vaguely deists" -- nope Bucky Mar 2016 #143

Sorry, I should have qualified Albertoo Mar 2016 #150

Since "born-again" President George W. Bush launched a "crusade" (his words) against Iraq YoungDemCA Mar 2016 #162

Individuals are not institutions, the Constitution is secular Albertoo Mar 2016 #164

Who said anything about a theocracy? YoungDemCA Mar 2016 #165

Oh, right, imprecision in the word I used Albertoo Mar 2016 #166

Is President Obama authorizing any military action in the name of the Christian God? Matrosov Mar 2016 #130

Criticizing Islam or Threatening Muslims? Meteor Man Mar 2016 #46

"Have you tried criticizing Netanyahu on a college campus or on-line forum recently?" oberliner Mar 2016 #66

I'm against all bad things done in the name of invisible Sky Dudes NightWatcher Mar 2016 #51

Me too. Except that some bad things are much worse than other bad things. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #144

Where exactly is the condemnation of the slaughter of Palestinians and malaise Mar 2016 #67

Book publishers can't even print maps for school history books. Octafish Mar 2016 #76

My grandma used to say take care when pointing fingers malaise Mar 2016 #77

that map supports the OPs contention Mosby Mar 2016 #126

Really? That's how my own eyes remember the map changing over the years. Octafish Mar 2016 #152

you know who was a big believer in eugenics? Mosby Mar 2016 #154

Yeah. I wrote about her on DU in 2004. Octafish Mar 2016 #157

Ugh, I hate straw man arguments. STOP making stuff up in order to have an argument Bucky Mar 2016 #75

Probably because there's a wave of islamaphobia, ShrimpPoboy Mar 2016 #79

I have no idea why it exists. I have no idea why Abraham's God gets any respect at all. Coventina Mar 2016 #97

There wasn't any last-minute intervention Mariana Mar 2016 #114

Which is, of course, because God hated females more than just about anything else on Earth n/t arcane1 Mar 2016 #134

It is not the religions, it's us. We are the problem. bemildred Mar 2016 #105

Don't exect many DUers to have a rational response Democat Mar 2016 #107

+1. Ill just leave this here: mr_liberal Mar 2016 #111

Wow. I wish you would start a thread with this video TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2016 #115

As progressives we're supposed to hate Christianity and Judaism. ileus Mar 2016 #113

I hate all three of those religions. I don't hate their believers, though. Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #148

Because hatred for Republicans clouds their thinking. TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2016 #116

Surely you must understand that, in an era dominated by right-wing xenophobia Maedhros Mar 2016 #117

Those talking points are completely different however Matrosov Mar 2016 #124

Yet, surely, when you make posts broad-brushing Muslims and Islam as misogynistic, homophobic, Maedhros Mar 2016 #151

All Abrahamic religions are violent and terrible. Deadshot Mar 2016 #118

what a delightfully nuanced opinion Bucky Mar 2016 #123

Because a baker refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #139

Christians in Uganda (funded by Christians in US and elsewhere) killing gay people for being gay.... Arugula Latte Mar 2016 #147

Yep. Deadshot Mar 2016 #153

let's be fair, those are asshole Christians on the right steve2470 Mar 2016 #181

Recently an Egyptian lawmaker was fired. Nichevo11 Mar 2016 #119

Some liberals have trouble distinguishing between valid criticism and actual bigotry. arcane1 Mar 2016 #129

Recognizing the difference in religion, religious interpretation and religious justifications LanternWaste Mar 2016 #142

Understanding media terminology when reporting events involving Muslims In Western countries Petrushka Mar 2016 #145

Because much of the criticism against "Islam" is directed at Muslims and is often laced with racism YoungDemCA Mar 2016 #163

What was the religious makeup of the only people to nuke a couple of cities? mwrguy Mar 2016 #176

"We have no problem blaming Judaism when Jewish extremists attack and kill Palestinians." KamaAina Mar 2016 #178

OP might be talking about settlers, who are usually extremist and violent. Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #184

"Technically they aren't an arm of the government of Israel" KamaAina Mar 2016 #185

Thats where the "technically" comes in. Franky its a clusterfuck, but I do... Humanist_Activist Mar 2016 #186

the OP was saying "we" as in "people here" ericson00 Mar 2016 #188

+1 n/t Matrosov Mar 2016 #192

I'm talking about orthodox extremists Matrosov Mar 2016 #191

BUMP! x100000 ericson00 Mar 2016 #187

Any idea that is immune to criticism has no value. Oneironaut Mar 2016 #190

Great point Matrosov Mar 2016 #195

Speaking for myself... Bradical79 Mar 2016 #196

Thank you Matrosov Mar 2016 #197

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #198