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In reply to the discussion: John Kasich to seniors who want to keep their Social Security: “get over it” [View all]True Earthling
(832 posts)134. SS benefits are already means tested..higher wages subject to SS tax are replaced at a lower rate
then benefits are subject to a progressive tax based on income...
Why Arent Social Security and Medicare Means Tested?
https://www.ced.org/blog/entry/why-arent-social-security-and-medicare-means-tested
But to begin, some backup for the (to some) surprising assertion. The notion that Social Security (Medicare discussion to follow) is not means tested flows from a fairly simple view of the programs cash benefits. Retirees who earned comparatively higher wages receive higher benefits than those who earned lower wages, the reasoning would go, therefore the program cannot possibly be means tested. Furthermore, the amount of wages subject to the payroll tax that funds the program is capped and therefore the tax is regressive, and so the overall program must be pro-rich and anti-poor.
But as some understand, that simple reasoning misses two key aspects of the programs operations. First, the programs benefit formula favors lower-wage workers. Benefit amounts are based on the lifetime earnings history. The first dollars of a workers wages are replaced at a 90 percent rate. Earnings in a second bracket (mechanically like an income-tax-rate bracket) are replaced at a 32 percent rate. And any earnings above that level are replaced at only a 15 percent rate. Thus, although higher-wage workers receive more dollars in absolute terms, they receive less back in Social Security benefits per dollar of tax paid over their lifetimes. At the extremes, the difference in the implicit rate of return on those contributions is enormous.
The second key program feature is that a fraction of Social Security benefits can be subject to income taxation, on a progressive basis and then the income tax that applies to those included benefits itself is progressive. Once a beneficiarys total income (including half of Social Security benefits) exceeds $25,000 ($32,000 for a married couple), the first dollar of benefits begins to be taxable, up to inclusion of one-half of benefits. And once income (including half of Social Security benefits) exceeds $34,000 ($44,000 for a married couple) the portion of benefits included in taxable income begins to rise further, up to a maximum inclusion of 85 percent of benefits. This provision is designed to have no effect on the low-income elderly, while gradually increasing its impact as total incomes rise.
The Social Security Administration estimates that the average beneficiary in 2013 received an annual benefit of $15,528. If that person had no other income, he or she would owe no income tax on Social Security benefits or anything else (although that person certainly would not enjoy a luxurious lifestyle based on that benefit). As incomes from whatever source rise above the $25,000 threshold noted above, benefits progressively become subject to tax, at income tax rates that start at 10 percent and rise according to the total amount of taxable income. Tax is calculated after a $3,900 personal exemption and a $7,600 standard deduction (for single persons of age 65 or older). Thus, a beneficiary with a taxable income of $11,500 (from taxable Social Security benefits or any other source) would owe no income tax, with tax beginning to accumulate above that level only at the bottom-bracket 10 percent rate.
The theoretical maximum annual benefit in 2013, for a lifelong maximum wage earner retiring at the full eligibility age, was $30,396. If that person also received other income of roughly $40,000, the full 85 percent of that persons benefit would be subject to income taxation. At the absolute upper end of the scale, a beneficiary in the highest income tax rate bracket with 85 percent of benefits subject to tax would pay tax on benefits at the margin at a rate equal to about 34 percent (that is, 85 percent of the 39.6 percent top-bracket tax rate). And to get into that top income tax rate bracket, that taxpayer would need to have a taxable income, after the personal exemption and any standard or itemized deductions, of over $400,000.
In other words, the income tax due on Social Security benefits is quite progressive, with benefits for probably most of the elderly not subject to tax at all, but with more than a third of benefits paid back in income tax by the most well-off. Taking into account the lower benefit-formula conversion rates that apply to high-wage retirees, their after-tax returns on their lifetimes of payroll tax contributions, measured in investment terms, would be quite modest if not in some instances negative (further reflections on that fact later). So Social Security is means tested in reality, if not in name.
But as some understand, that simple reasoning misses two key aspects of the programs operations. First, the programs benefit formula favors lower-wage workers. Benefit amounts are based on the lifetime earnings history. The first dollars of a workers wages are replaced at a 90 percent rate. Earnings in a second bracket (mechanically like an income-tax-rate bracket) are replaced at a 32 percent rate. And any earnings above that level are replaced at only a 15 percent rate. Thus, although higher-wage workers receive more dollars in absolute terms, they receive less back in Social Security benefits per dollar of tax paid over their lifetimes. At the extremes, the difference in the implicit rate of return on those contributions is enormous.
The second key program feature is that a fraction of Social Security benefits can be subject to income taxation, on a progressive basis and then the income tax that applies to those included benefits itself is progressive. Once a beneficiarys total income (including half of Social Security benefits) exceeds $25,000 ($32,000 for a married couple), the first dollar of benefits begins to be taxable, up to inclusion of one-half of benefits. And once income (including half of Social Security benefits) exceeds $34,000 ($44,000 for a married couple) the portion of benefits included in taxable income begins to rise further, up to a maximum inclusion of 85 percent of benefits. This provision is designed to have no effect on the low-income elderly, while gradually increasing its impact as total incomes rise.
The Social Security Administration estimates that the average beneficiary in 2013 received an annual benefit of $15,528. If that person had no other income, he or she would owe no income tax on Social Security benefits or anything else (although that person certainly would not enjoy a luxurious lifestyle based on that benefit). As incomes from whatever source rise above the $25,000 threshold noted above, benefits progressively become subject to tax, at income tax rates that start at 10 percent and rise according to the total amount of taxable income. Tax is calculated after a $3,900 personal exemption and a $7,600 standard deduction (for single persons of age 65 or older). Thus, a beneficiary with a taxable income of $11,500 (from taxable Social Security benefits or any other source) would owe no income tax, with tax beginning to accumulate above that level only at the bottom-bracket 10 percent rate.
The theoretical maximum annual benefit in 2013, for a lifelong maximum wage earner retiring at the full eligibility age, was $30,396. If that person also received other income of roughly $40,000, the full 85 percent of that persons benefit would be subject to income taxation. At the absolute upper end of the scale, a beneficiary in the highest income tax rate bracket with 85 percent of benefits subject to tax would pay tax on benefits at the margin at a rate equal to about 34 percent (that is, 85 percent of the 39.6 percent top-bracket tax rate). And to get into that top income tax rate bracket, that taxpayer would need to have a taxable income, after the personal exemption and any standard or itemized deductions, of over $400,000.
In other words, the income tax due on Social Security benefits is quite progressive, with benefits for probably most of the elderly not subject to tax at all, but with more than a third of benefits paid back in income tax by the most well-off. Taking into account the lower benefit-formula conversion rates that apply to high-wage retirees, their after-tax returns on their lifetimes of payroll tax contributions, measured in investment terms, would be quite modest if not in some instances negative (further reflections on that fact later). So Social Security is means tested in reality, if not in name.
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John Kasich to seniors who want to keep their Social Security: “get over it” [View all]
WhiteTara
Apr 2016
OP
I guess he didn't pay attention to Paul Ryan tanking Mittens with those kind of remarks.
Kalidurga
Apr 2016
#1
I wish he would say it more often and more emphatically. I think this alone will win it for him.
Hiraeth
Apr 2016
#21
Isn't that the largest voting bloc? I could be wrong. I think it surpasses all other demographics.
Hiraeth
Apr 2016
#28
For this election cycle? Older voters are the largest demographic. This election. How many voters
Hiraeth
Apr 2016
#54
I haven't a clue how many older voters will die off between now and election day,
SheilaT
Apr 2016
#57
People who will be eligible to draw SS within the next 4-8 years (presidential cycle) should pay
Hiraeth
Apr 2016
#68
Kinda hard to say that without stipulating how you're breaking down age groups ...
brett_jv
Apr 2016
#60
People who will be eligible to draw SS within the next 4-8 years (presidential cycle) should pay
Hiraeth
Apr 2016
#69
I think it is foolish for any politician to say they would never do something. She's made it clear
Hoyt
Apr 2016
#49
The only real way to save Social Security is to bring currently outsourced jobs back to the U.S.
AdHocSolver
Apr 2016
#81
Unless you say benefits are frozen, increasing the cap is only a partial solution. And
Hoyt
Apr 2016
#90
Yeah, let's trade amog ourselves working for, and buying from, small businesses. See how we
Hoyt
Apr 2016
#113
Having numerous small to medium size businesses rather than one huge mega-corporation...
AdHocSolver
Apr 2016
#114
How do we get over it? Wages are too low. Healthcare is insufficient. Starvation and suicide? Do
NCjack
Apr 2016
#61
OP is totally misleading... Kasich's plan is to cut SS benefits for HIGH INCOME seniors only
True Earthling
Apr 2016
#93
Under Kasich's plan high income seniors would receive less SS.. it would not go to zero
True Earthling
Apr 2016
#106
SS benefits are already means tested..higher wages subject to SS tax are replaced at a lower rate
True Earthling
Apr 2016
#134
Tell that to my husband's friend who children just lost their SSI. Democrats are just as
liberal_at_heart
Apr 2016
#119
It's Bernie! Let's send him another donation now. If he is not elected, many of us will be living
NCjack
Apr 2016
#55
Capt. John Kasich, US Tea Party, is especially mean to weak defenseless. If he gets power over you,
NCjack
Apr 2016
#56
"their Social Security" Trying to steal something someone has already worked for.n/t
jtuck004
Apr 2016
#10
Instead of telling seniors to "get over it" we could raise the income cap.
Shoulders of Giants
Apr 2016
#11
If seniors can get over it, Kasich should be able to get over having his pension taken away, right?
Gene Debs
Apr 2016
#15
I'm a Lefty, but I thought this quote seemed familiar. The piece is from Oct. 2015. Kasich = idiot
vkkv
Apr 2016
#35
She is against raising the cap on the wealthy and the ARA give her good ratings.
B Calm
Apr 2016
#87
Get over it, grandma. Fancy Feast is too good for a burger anyway. Try store brand cat food.
Vinca
Apr 2016
#73
Kasich is just as bad as the other clowns, but without the overt insanity nt
LiberalElite
Apr 2016
#88