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eniwetok

(1,629 posts)
53. yup... a cat fight
Sun Apr 3, 2016, 09:58 PM
Apr 2016

And yet if we don't reform our system...

I think the "left" has been blind to how our antidemocratic system has contributed to many of the problems we care most about... from the destruction of unions, to massive debt, to growing corporate power over government itself.

Our system has class warfare built into it. During the secret debates over the drafting of the Constitution Madison said the following...

MADISON: The man who is possessed of wealth, who lolls on his sofa, or rolls in his carriage, cannot judge of the wants or feelings of the day laborer. The government we mean to erect is intended to last for ages. The landed interest, at present, is prevalent; but in process of time, when we approximate to the states and kingdoms of Europe; when the number of landholders shall be comparatively small, through the various means of trade and manufactures, will not the landed interest be overbalanced in future elections, and unless wisely provided against, what will become of your government? In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability. Various have been the propositions; but my opinion is, the longer they continue in office, the better will these views be answered.

source: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/const/yates.htm

Madison clearly anticipated class warfare and his solution was not to give both the wealthy and the commoners equal power in the Constitution, but to give the wealthy a veto over the commoners in the Senate. But the entire Constitution incorporates this principle.... including the Electoral College and the amendment process.

But the powers of the Senate go further than just providing elites a veto over legislation. The Senate has exclusive powers in the areas of treaties and nominations... as well as the final world on removing a president from office.

We can debate whether the Senate remains the bastion of the wealthy, or was ever the body of the wise elders. Dangerous demagogues like Ted Cruz certainly undermine that notion. But Madison's institutional power arrangement survives regardless who is in the House or Senate. Now it's really a minority of states with 18% of the US population which has that veto over the House, and exclusive powers over treaties and nominations.

Why are such issues never discussed? Why, despite its failings, do these structural defects in the Constitution escape scrutiny?

In Federalist 49 Madison argues against making the Constitution easier to reform because that might focus the People on its defects. He believes that the masses must VENERATE their government to insure stability:

In the next place, it may be considered as an objection inherent in the principle, that as every appeal to the people would carry an implication of some defect in the government, frequent appeals would, in a great measure, deprive the government of that veneration which time bestows on every thing, and without which perhaps the wisest and freest governments would not possess the requisite stability.

Madison's hope obviously prevailed in this regard. The Constitution is virtually reformproof. NONE of the core antidemocratic features of the document has ever been reformed. Sadly, even liberals in this nation have opted for unquestioning veneration. Our antidemocratic and reformproof system have become principles unto themselves and liberals who should know better merely accept and work within that framework.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Are you looking to do away with the Senate? dogman Mar 2016 #1
are you suggesting the senate is morally illegitimate? eniwetok Mar 2016 #5
They are not proportional to population. dogman Mar 2016 #8
so antidemocratic government is about morality? eniwetok Mar 2016 #12
I guess your question would be to the founders. dogman Mar 2016 #13
given us? eniwetok Mar 2016 #14
We would probably still be a colony. dogman Mar 2016 #15
missing the point eniwetok Mar 2016 #16
limiting the power of the minority eniwetok Apr 2016 #17
Is the Senate constitutional? WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2016 #34
of course it's "constitutional" eniwetok Apr 2016 #38
Not so sure 'bout that. WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2016 #41
the problem with ANY reformulation of the EC eniwetok Apr 2016 #43
I'm with you. The Senate is an abomination. Does America look like Chicago, represented by 2 WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2016 #44
So, less populous states are now Bettie Apr 2016 #60
Keep the Senate... but base it on national proportional representation eniwetok Apr 2016 #48
Votes in swing states weigh more than non swing states too Rebkeh Mar 2016 #2
isn't it odd... eniwetok Mar 2016 #6
In 2012, 66 million voted for Obama and 61 million for Romney. Nye Bevan Mar 2016 #3
that's the problem with... eniwetok Mar 2016 #7
There is no solution to that, because there is no other way a government could work. potone Mar 2016 #10
Its called a Eko Mar 2016 #4
as opposed to... eniwetok Apr 2016 #22
a democracy. Eko Apr 2016 #26
It depends on what you are talking about. potone Mar 2016 #9
no other interests... eniwetok Mar 2016 #11
We are the 'United States', not 'America'. X_Digger Apr 2016 #54
lol tymorial Apr 2016 #59
RED HERRING ALERT!! eniwetok Apr 2016 #63
If you look into the deliberations forming the Constitution 1939 Apr 2016 #19
Much was debated eniwetok Apr 2016 #21
I disagree on this point... 2naSalit Apr 2016 #28
and the federalist papers... eniwetok Apr 2016 #31
I look at it in a different light I guess 2naSalit Apr 2016 #33
no progress the past 225 years? eniwetok Apr 2016 #37
Hmmm 2naSalit Apr 2016 #39
In our system apathy is not an unreasonablel response. eniwetok Apr 2016 #46
---unreasonable--- 2naSalit Apr 2016 #49
I meant unreasonable... eniwetok Apr 2016 #50
If the constitution were 'reformproof' we wouldn't be up to #28 for the next one. X_Digger Apr 2016 #55
here's the amendment breakdown... eniwetok Apr 2016 #64
I would submit 1939 Apr 2016 #72
no key reforms in 225 years eniwetok Apr 2016 #47
I remember Al Gore having more votes than Bush. Should the Electoral College be done away B Calm Apr 2016 #18
the EC is an antidemocratic abomination eniwetok Apr 2016 #20
Let's ask Socrates. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2016 #23
it's called the senate. nt La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2016 #24
So is this one of those threads where we answer questions with questions? Iggo Apr 2016 #25
One group of 1,000 voters gets counted as 1,000 votes, another group of 1,000 counts as 900 .... L. Coyote Apr 2016 #27
voter suppression is different from... eniwetok Apr 2016 #35
Learn a little about basic government and get back with us. Rex Apr 2016 #29
really? eniwetok Apr 2016 #30
how many other nations have our system? eniwetok Apr 2016 #40
Republicans would be the Green Party if it was one person one vote Democat Apr 2016 #32
some numbers: votes vs senate seats eniwetok Apr 2016 #36
It loses some legitimacy, but not all of it. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #42
what remains morally legitimate? eniwetok Apr 2016 #45
The US is a rigged manipulated democracy and the highest bidder wins. And some of it is obsolete, RKP5637 Apr 2016 #51
yup... a cat fight eniwetok Apr 2016 #53
Thank you for your astute reply! n/t RKP5637 Apr 2016 #70
If we didn't have a bicameral legislature then yes tymorial Apr 2016 #52
so bicameral means it MUST be antidemocratic? eniwetok Apr 2016 #56
Your concept is preposterous tymorial Apr 2016 #58
No, YOUR concept is preposterous eniwetok Apr 2016 #61
You mean like how the vote of someone in wymoing is way more proportionally powerful in the Senate Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #57
we're only stuck with it if... eniwetok Apr 2016 #62
If I wasn't capable of "questioning" it, I wouldn't have mentioned it. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #65
the bar is insanely high eniwetok Apr 2016 #66
it is important to remember, absolutely. And I'm all for pointing it out. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #67
I hope you're wrong eniwetok Apr 2016 #68
There is a logistical process to changing the constitution, though, that goes beyond simply changing Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #69
what I'm saying eniwetok Apr 2016 #71
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