General Discussion

steve2470

(37,481 posts)

140. from 2013 but still very relevant

Thu Apr 7, 2016, 02:57 PM

Apr 2016

The new campaign to increase the minimum wage has drawn the familiar arguments against it out of the academic shadows and back into the public debate. They have a long history. In a fireside chat the night before he signed the bill, Franklin Roosevelt took their measure, urging his listeners to ignore the nattering of "any calamity-howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day" telling them "that a wage of $11 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all American industry."

Who's leading the charge against a minimum wage increase today? The restaurant industry, which includes such fast-food mega-companies as McDonald's and Yum Brands (owner of KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut), both of which are earning higher profits now than before the recession.

The most common objection to a higher minimum wage always has been that it leads to lower employment. This is one of those "everybody knows" talking points, and it does have a strong intuitive appeal. Stands to reason, doesn't it? Require business owners to spend more on each employee, and of course they're going to spread it among fewer people.

As it happens, the employment effect of the minimum wage is "one of the most studied topics in all of economics," observes economist John Schmitt. So it's curious that, despite decades of searching, economists have failed to document consistently any such phenomenon.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/28/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20130630

Guess who's against raising the minimum wage ? The Cato Institute

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A 16 year old should absolutely make $31K [View all] Recursion Apr 2016 OP

I'd rather 16 year olds be in school, but if... stone space Apr 2016 #1

Isn't there a child labor law against that? brush Apr 2016 #68

I would hope so, as I would much prefer to see them in school. stone space Apr 2016 #74

Exactly, no kid should have to work full-time instead of being in school, even at a higher minimum brush Apr 2016 #80

See my post #111. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #123

15 an hour would sure help cut down on the amount the gov't or parents pay for college huh? hollowdweller Apr 2016 #129

Not clear what you're saying. brush Apr 2016 #170

"should", yes philosslayer Apr 2016 #2

Someone who is legally required to Recursion Apr 2016 #3

Huh? philosslayer Apr 2016 #4

Minimum wages set the minimum pay rate at which one person may hire another Recursion Apr 2016 #5

"May" hire. Not "Must" hire. My original question stands. philosslayer Apr 2016 #10

If it's a bright, energetic, talented, computer-savvy kid, Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #14

If, if, if philosslayer Apr 2016 #17

If he's not worth $15 per hour, and the law says you have to pay him that, Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #19

If hes bright and qualified he can probably get 15 an hour today. Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #46

Case in point.. cannabis_flower Apr 2016 #55

Nobody is "required" to hire anyone, but if they do, they should pay them a living wage world wide wally Apr 2016 #6

Nobody is required to retain somebody if they are not worth what they are paying them. hollowdweller Apr 2016 #122

Were they ever? world wide wally Apr 2016 #134

No employee in a capitalist economy is ever paid what they are worth. fasttense Apr 2016 #177

The same people who are hiring them at minimum wage now Marrah_G Apr 2016 #26

Mic drop? How about mic fail? 7962 Apr 2016 #92

There are very few $7.25 an hour 16 year old workers today :) Sunlei Apr 2016 #109

See also: child labor laws lapislzi Apr 2016 #143

D'oh, everyone who can profit from doing so in some way. L. Coyote Apr 2016 #7

Well that was simple philosslayer Apr 2016 #15

What kind of skilled laborer does a small business deserve to employ for $15 / hour? Orrex Apr 2016 #20

Thank you! noamnety Apr 2016 #22

How about if my business plan depends on me... meaculpa2011 Apr 2016 #33

If it's your own business noamnety Apr 2016 #38

So if the price of a pizza goes from $15 to $20... meaculpa2011 Apr 2016 #70

Why twist my words? noamnety Apr 2016 #121

Sorry. Not trying to twist your words... meaculpa2011 Apr 2016 #142

See my post #111 to put this in the perspective of the cost of a college education at a state JDPriestly Apr 2016 #126

So what would currently take 2 hours labor to buy, would now take 1.3 hours. It's cheaper. Glassunion Apr 2016 #145

Not for the customer... meaculpa2011 Apr 2016 #147

So pizza should not be affordable to those earning minimum wages? Glassunion Apr 2016 #154

Okay. You may be right... meaculpa2011 Apr 2016 #156

Unless your business is built solely on the premise of paying people the very minimum allowed by law Glassunion Apr 2016 #159

I don't know your situation, but sometimes the owners need to absorb some of the increase in costs, Hoyt Apr 2016 #178

Then your business plan is untenable Orrex Apr 2016 #50

+1 nt laundry_queen Apr 2016 #183

Thats when you hire landscapers for outside/ cleaning service for inside and you pay a set rate. Sunlei Apr 2016 #67

I was in business for seven years hfojvt Apr 2016 #152

You can easily find online calculators for living wage by region Orrex Apr 2016 #160

the calculators are just somebody's guess hfojvt Apr 2016 #171

No, they're a calculation. Orrex Apr 2016 #172

except that if people are clearlg living on less than a livable wage hfojvt Apr 2016 #179

You're arguing that your work has no value and that we should all be serfs Orrex Apr 2016 #182

I know we are supposed to celebrate small business people and farmers in the U.S.A.... hunter Apr 2016 #28

So corps like Wal Mart R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #40

How is it you afford to pay minimum wage now? Egnever Apr 2016 #45

That wasn't my point though R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #57

It's a ridiculous point Egnever Apr 2016 #61

Sometimes a small business doesn't have "pricing power" 1939 Apr 2016 #153

The average grounds maintenance workers make 11.68 an hour (BLS data). Glassunion Apr 2016 #158

I hope this is just a few small businesses. Delmette Apr 2016 #133

Back in the early 1980's pay for skilled labor was higher than $15.00 L. Coyote Apr 2016 #141

Now you want skilled workers for $15 an hr, lol. B Calm Apr 2016 #18

unskilled? the post mentioned sweeping floor and taking out trash and clean toilets -- what kind saturnsring Apr 2016 #23

what kind of skill is needed for that - AlbertCat Apr 2016 #51

what's wrong with you i wasnt looking down on anyone saturnsring Apr 2016 #91

Which is the harder job? We do not value hard work in our country! hollowdweller Apr 2016 #127

It's not how strenuous the work is skepticscott Apr 2016 #148

In the real world, the vast majority of minimum-wage jobs are held by adults. Aristus Apr 2016 #49

Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience. Vincardog Apr 2016 #86

Not even to China. The factories on Mexico's border pay $7 a day to make our washers/dryers & Sunlei Apr 2016 #97

See my post 111 in which I compare $31,000 to the cost of a year of UC at Berkeley. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #120

Hours worked shouldn't matter. Why discriminate against part time workers? B Calm Apr 2016 #8

Part time hourly workers should make less than full time hourly workers, yes? Recursion Apr 2016 #9

They are already making less than a full time employee. B Calm Apr 2016 #11

For what reason? Kentonio Apr 2016 #30

Because wages are paid by hours worked? Recursion Apr 2016 #31

Ah! No sorry, I think we both meant per hour. Kentonio Apr 2016 #37

Ah, sorry, agreed Recursion Apr 2016 #66

Absolutely. Kentonio Apr 2016 #89

I thought there were laws preventing 16 yr-olds from working 40 hours liberal N proud Apr 2016 #12

Depends on the state. jeff47 Apr 2016 #21

I don't think it's legal for children to work those hours, not sure though if state/federal child.. Sunlei Apr 2016 #13

If you pay some people by the hour they tend to drag out the work to get more hours. saturnsring Apr 2016 #24

Some do, probably best to pay kids * by the job rather then the hour.Like sweep floors for $30. Sunlei Apr 2016 #34

It sure as hell isn't in NY R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #39

I think the Federal minimum should be about $20 an hour.Including farm workers & prisoners get 100% Sunlei Apr 2016 #43

I've only had to process a few H1-B applications R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #59

All legal and fair on visa paperwork. I think foreign visa required fed minimum wage is why Congress Sunlei Apr 2016 #62

I'd like to see a cite for that if you don't mind R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #72

a cite for what? visa people who are hired to work are required to be paid our federal minimum wage. Sunlei Apr 2016 #90

No sorry, not that part R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #95

Nevermind, I found it R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #100

Individuals not so much but America brings in 'crews' of foreign workers to do forestry work, resort Sunlei Apr 2016 #108

OK, that I can definitely see happening R.A. Ganoush Apr 2016 #146

And if the employer thinks someone is dragging out the work... thesquanderer Apr 2016 #52

That's true, but I think it's better to supervise & make them resweep the missed corners :P Sunlei Apr 2016 #88

Recommended. H2O Man Apr 2016 #16

Yes. One of the things that bothers me about this debate noamnety Apr 2016 #25

I was kicked out of my home for being gay DetroitSocialist83 Apr 2016 #27

ugh Egnever Apr 2016 #53

Slight issue with this. Visionary Apr 2016 #29

So all the companies who current require that work done will just choose to close instead? Kentonio Apr 2016 #32

if the law becomes mandatory, all affected businesses will raise prices a bit to accomodate steve2470 Apr 2016 #44

Not really. Companies like Amazon that use massive amounts of automation will be less affected, Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #54

shrug steve2470 Apr 2016 #60

As long as you are OK with the implications. Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #63

What I'm hearing from you is this: HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #76

Business owners are constantly weighing the benefits versus the costs of automation. Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #81

And . . . again . . . how does Capitalism as is continue? HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #87

Indeed, if you are going to enact policies that preclude large numbers of low-skilled people Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #93

So, inflation then? n/t HillareeeHillaraah Apr 2016 #55

from what I've read, a small amount nt steve2470 Apr 2016 #58

Every attempt to improve worker conditions has met with the same response Orrex Apr 2016 #75

I can't believe this even needs to be pointed out here. Kali Apr 2016 #165

Right? Orrex Apr 2016 #168

Seriously! freebrew Apr 2016 #175

Yes - many low wage jobs are very physical GreatGazoo Apr 2016 #35

madness Mr Dixon Apr 2016 #36

First of all, most 16yr olds are protected by worker rights. glowing Apr 2016 #41

I think a $15 an hour law is justified for teens but should be phased in slowly steve2470 Apr 2016 #42

When I was a minimum wage worker... LuckyTheDog Apr 2016 #47

very good points. I wonder if thats where Obama got the $10.10 minimum wage he pushed for years. Sunlei Apr 2016 #64

Why arbitrarily choose 1968? Taitertots Apr 2016 #82

Because that year was when the wage was "worth" the most. 7962 Apr 2016 #96

Right. LuckyTheDog Apr 2016 #102

That doesn't mean it is the right number. Taitertots Apr 2016 #161

Information about current national minimum wage (no copyrights, all govt. material) steve2470 Apr 2016 #48

States also have minimum wage laws. California's minimum wage will be moving up to $15 per hour JDPriestly Apr 2016 #115

My first thought when I see these posts that think the jwirr Apr 2016 #65

excellent points! nt steve2470 Apr 2016 #69

Not for sweeping floors.... humbled_opinion Apr 2016 #71

Without unions My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #73

this ^^^ Kali Apr 2016 #169

Standing ovation!! Silver_Witch Apr 2016 #173

As for me, if you're old enough to work you deserve a living wage Solly Mack Apr 2016 #77

Exactly! My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #78

Yep. 30 years ago at least. Solly Mack Apr 2016 #163

Why should an uneducated kid make more than me? scscholar Apr 2016 #79

Who is responsible for your pay, but you? My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #83

That is an argument for why you should make more Orrex Apr 2016 #85

you are so funny SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #155

It depends. Is your degree in Performance Bassoon from The University of Arizona? Glassunion Apr 2016 #162

It's bass clarinet... scscholar Apr 2016 #166

Because there is always truth in humor. I was going to school for a degree in music myself... Glassunion Apr 2016 #167

Your jealousy is disgusting. Odin2005 Apr 2016 #181

I would recommend the debate be based on an 18 year old. CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #84

why should rural poverty My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #98

I would agree.. CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #104

We live in rural Pennsylvania My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #114

On the other hand... CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #124

I'm very sorry to hear that. nt My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #125

The same reason 100k in NYC isnt considered wealthy. 7962 Apr 2016 #112

My son rents apartment... CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #116

Well, I disagree My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #118

Why would you discriminate against workers in rural areas? B Calm Apr 2016 #103

See above. CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #105

Okay I looked above and I see nothing in your above post B Calm Apr 2016 #107

'Not as worthy' CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #110

Thanks for explaining why you think rural workers should be held back. B Calm Apr 2016 #119

B Calm... CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #128

I agree, but this is not a perfect world we live in. B Calm Apr 2016 #131

Yes... CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #135

Yeah, I thought the same Rebkeh Apr 2016 #94

I think we owe our kids an education scioto99 Apr 2016 #99

Yes, the minimum wage should be $15/hr mountain grammy Apr 2016 #101

Aree Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #106

And on that income, he or she can live and save for college. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #111

We should not be discussing wages for a 16 year old... CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #113

I started working very young -- carrying ads from door to door when I was younger than I care JDPriestly Apr 2016 #117

At 16 I had my own business. CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #132

The good old days. One of my daughters started a business at 12, but she did not make a lot JDPriestly Apr 2016 #138

Damn.. I'm only making slightly more than that at age 39... Blue_Tires Apr 2016 #130

at least Jr. can pay his own car insurance and cell bill... ileus Apr 2016 #136

We have a brand new, cheap labor conservative on the board Warpy Apr 2016 #137

It should not matter what the minimum wage is... CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #139

from 2013 but still very relevant steve2470 Apr 2016 #140

Why don't we back up and look at ALL minimum wage workers csziggy Apr 2016 #144

You post does not fit the myopic view some have in regards to living wages. Glassunion Apr 2016 #149

Thank you n/t csziggy Apr 2016 #151

Thank you! Solly Mack Apr 2016 #164

Actually I would have loved a full time summer job at 16 hfojvt Apr 2016 #150

I had a full-time summer job when I was 16... meaculpa2011 Apr 2016 #157

A 16-year old SHOULD BE IN SCHOOL!!! Herman4747 Apr 2016 #174

New argument from the right... freebrew Apr 2016 #176

People who think minimum wage jobs are mainly for teenagers are privileged middle class assholes. Odin2005 Apr 2016 #180

Sure Avalon Sparks Apr 2016 #184