General Discussion

malthaussen

(18,560 posts)

145. In your opinion.

Fri Apr 15, 2016, 02:53 PM

Apr 2016

Which is not, after all, worth any more than anyone else's. Small-scale UPI experiments have had smashing successes, other programs that "give free stuff" have not had dire social consequences, so one may be forgiven for wondering on what data you base your opinion. And let us stipulate it is so, what is the solution, then? Where will the jobs come from? For years, it has been claimed that new industries will come into existence to create new jobs for those who become redundant, yet unless Starbucks is your idea of a "new industry," this turns out not to be the case. Productivity-per-worker continues to climb, and there is no reason to think it will stop any time soon. Who do you know who thinks a brake should be put on productivity? Anyone who proposed that would be laughed at as a Luddite. So tell me, what do we do with all the people we don't need? It's not a facetious question.

-- Mal

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What If We Just Gave Poor People a Basic Income for Life? That�s What We�re About to Test. [View all] Recursion Apr 2016 OP

There is a problem with this. Where is the money coming from? If it comes from the rhett o rick Apr 2016 #1

Plenty of money to fund it: Panama is overflowing with cash. Betty Karlson Apr 2016 #17

It's been Hoovered up. Time to claw it back down. nt SusanCalvin Apr 2016 #210

Where is the money coming from? why bernie of course, saturnsring Apr 2016 #28

you know that Canada is trying this, right? nt Javaman Apr 2016 #51

Stop challenging the simple minded. Phlem Apr 2016 #85

simple minded lol name calling is such the mark of a great mind saturnsring Apr 2016 #170

How else would you describe non functioning brain matter? Phlem Apr 2016 #172

This Fall in Ontario. But it was also tried earlier in Manitoba LiberalLovinLug Apr 2016 #148

+1 Thanks for sharing this! Phlem Apr 2016 #177

It's Not All Greed. The Far Left Apr 2016 #246

That's an awesome find bud! Phlem Apr 2016 #247

I am never surprised at the callousness of those that side with the Rich Fat Cats. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #181

Arent you the one who spoke up first about not wanting to contribute? Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #201

Boy can you twist things around. The biggest problem facing us today is the rhett o rick Apr 2016 #206

If spin was a sport, you would have the equivalent of the Heisman. Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #211

Did you notice. Rilesome Apr 2016 #234

great strawman saturnsring Apr 2016 #202

If that's all you have to say, off to ignoresville for you. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #208

run along then -- why do people feel the need to tell you theyre putting you on ignore saturnsring Apr 2016 #213

It gives them the LAST WORD Vincardog Apr 2016 #232

Wow! Fifteen Million!?!? maddiemom Apr 2016 #214

It is simple. Let Trump pay for it. Vincardog Apr 2016 #216

make him pay for it after what he's put us through saturnsring Apr 2016 #222

The other side lifting their dressies and showing their a$$e$ is never a bad thing Vincardog Apr 2016 #233

Basic economics - multiplier effect. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #30

I certainly understand this, however, we must figure in the percentage scraped off the top rhett o rick Apr 2016 #182

Yes absolutely. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #225

There are many possibilities to fund UBI pberq Apr 2016 #43

Yeah Man I like Your Thinking StarzGuy Apr 2016 #66

I support what you wrote. Of course none of the Cinton supporters would be on board. Those rhett o rick Apr 2016 #184

This is why they are so afraid of Bernie Sanders. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #228

Surely, you are not asking that question. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #55

It's a question that will be asked by many, and it's a question that should be discussed PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #71

No ... I completely agree. It IS a very pertinent question ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #78

You're right it is a pertinent question, and there are many possible ways to fund it pberq Apr 2016 #81

With all due respect....THAT is the only pertinent question. nt clarice Apr 2016 #126

Again, my comment was directed towards the person ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #128

SOOOOO Sorry..... I miss-read. Peace. nt clarice Apr 2016 #129

No worries ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #134

Agreed.nt clarice Apr 2016 #135

If that question doesn't result in a doable answer ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #140

I know where it should come from, but wanted others to give their opinions. I notice rhett o rick Apr 2016 #230

Haven't you figured out by now ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #231

Well look who showed up in a thread about helping the poor. Rarely find any rhett o rick Apr 2016 #187

I am NOT a HRC supporter ... How many times do you need to tell you before it sinks in? 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #189

Sorry, you must be one of very few non-progressives that doesn't support Clinton. nm rhett o rick Apr 2016 #191

Sorry is correct. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #192

So that's all you have to contribute to this thread? Do you support helping the poor or maybe no? rhett o rick Apr 2016 #193

Yes ... I support helping the poor ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #195

Trickle down is what Clinton proposes. She calls it "grow the economy". That's code for frack rhett o rick Apr 2016 #212

Okay. That's inaccurate ... No, incorrect; but, okay. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #221

Your argument isn't very compelling. By the way, I'd like to respond to your sig. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #224

You mean the expansion based on the law ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #229

He made it very clear that he ruluctantly signed the law while you read what BLM said about rhett o rick Apr 2016 #248

"How many times do you need to tell you"?! whathehell Apr 2016 #254

And no one else? I the interests of civility talk to your boy/girl! 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #257

Riiiiight whathehell Apr 2016 #258

Just curious ... Why did you select me as the person to be told to ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #259

because your anger was spilling over & making your text incomprehensible whathehell Apr 2016 #261

LOL ... BS; but, okay 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #262

LOL..Based on experience, I suspected you'd dismiss any answer I gave you whathehell Apr 2016 #263

Here is a better question for you hollowdweller Apr 2016 #61

I'm not sure this could replace all disability passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #158

"Where is the money coming from?" Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2016 #84

I agree. nm rhett o rick Apr 2016 #188

What's money, after all? malthaussen Apr 2016 #86

I totally agree with you that it cannot come from those who jwirr Apr 2016 #103

The IRS administers it 1939 Apr 2016 #117

Since I have worked for a county agency - you are correct. jwirr Apr 2016 #124

You would be able to dismantle every wasteful government program My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #111

Money comes from existing programs. Cosmic Kitten Apr 2016 #183

I hear you and that would be good, but currently the Rich Fat Cats are scrapping off their rhett o rick Apr 2016 #190

What is money? How do you understand what money is? JDPriestly Apr 2016 #219

I would love to continue this discussion, but my point here is related to wealth and not money. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #223

I totally agree with you on that. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #226

There was a time that wealth could be easily created. It was mainly because of cheap or free rhett o rick Apr 2016 #227

After all that the wealthy stole from our coffers over the last 15 years? I would say track it down silvershadow Apr 2016 #220

The banks fasttense Apr 2016 #252

Yes I agree. I guess my point, that I didn't do a very good job of making, is that any discussion rhett o rick Apr 2016 #255

Check HRC's Banking Regulation platform. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #260

I think part of the point of a UBI is the U part tk2kewl Apr 2016 #2

Yep. ronnie624 Apr 2016 #4

Guaranteed by whom?nt clarice Apr 2016 #59

Government, presumably. malthaussen Apr 2016 #89

Where would the money come from?nt clarice Apr 2016 #92

Money is stored labor. malthaussen Apr 2016 #98

Specifically where? And, I'm afraid that money is ALWAYS the question.nt clarice Apr 2016 #101

Here are some specifics pberq Apr 2016 #102

No, money is a metaphor. malthaussen Apr 2016 #109

Believe me when I say that I mean NO disrespect.....but clarice Apr 2016 #116

Sure, I'll believe you. malthaussen Apr 2016 #137

Very well said..... clarice Apr 2016 #165

Control of the means of production is no part of UPI... malthaussen Apr 2016 #186

The same guarantor of all of our rights, of course: ronnie624 Apr 2016 #200

If I had a UBI NobodyHere Apr 2016 #3

Which means you'd stop competing for wages with people who want to work Recursion Apr 2016 #6

Who will pick up trash and clean toilets for the same $$ as doing nothing ? Bonx Apr 2016 #10

I'd do it for the right amount of money. *that's* literally the point Recursion Apr 2016 #11

Why not $100/hour ? Bonx Apr 2016 #12

Because I'd pick up trash for less than that Recursion Apr 2016 #19

But you wouldn't pick up trash for less than this free basic income. Bonx Apr 2016 #23

I think you're missing the sense of "basic" Recursion Apr 2016 #34

No, my point is that basic would have to be so small Bonx Apr 2016 #76

True...and if you DON"T leave the couch...then you shouldn't expect anyone else to pay you.nt clarice Apr 2016 #122

what abt those who are too sick to leave the couch? redruddyred Apr 2016 #205

Yes.. I have always believed that a nation as fortunate as we are...... clarice Apr 2016 #209

There are not so many able-bodied couch potatos as people imagine... hunter Apr 2016 #238

Yes.. agreed 100%....but clarice Apr 2016 #265

I do not consider most employment "productive." hunter Apr 2016 #268

Either does 50% unemployment. IMHO.nt clarice Apr 2016 #269

It's a myth that people don't want to work gollygee Apr 2016 #256

Wages for work should not be competitive with welfare My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #155

Reductio ad absurdum. ChazInAz Apr 2016 #38

Funny, that's he same argument Republicans use against the minimum wage Lordquinton Apr 2016 #69

If we're talking about a national $15/hr minimum wage, that's not a good idea either. Bonx Apr 2016 #80

Yes... I admire the people who pick up the trash and.... clarice Apr 2016 #121

Nobody. That's literally the point. hunter Apr 2016 #13

So the wealthy will be picking up trash and mopping the public schools and city hall Bonx Apr 2016 #16

You have no idea... hunter Apr 2016 #49

The money earned from those jobs would be additional income. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #20

So poor working people supporting really poor drunk people. Bonx Apr 2016 #24

Only if you dismiss what others have told you already about how this would be paid for. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #26

I'm sorry I don't agree that this laughable idea is viable. Bonx Apr 2016 #27

That's painfully obvious. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #32

obtuse = you don't agree Bonx Apr 2016 #75

Actually in this case tkmorris Apr 2016 #106

Tell yourself whatever you need to feel better about it. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #203

Do some research Lordquinton Apr 2016 #70

Yep, but what works on the micro scale might not work on the macro. malthaussen Apr 2016 #91

Of course not. Phlem Apr 2016 #87

AND THERE IT IS!!! I've been waiting for someone who's out of ammo to play the Republican card. clarice Apr 2016 #132

So that's how your interpreting this. Phlem Apr 2016 #136

So..I guess you are saying "Thank God my Mother married a Republican prick?".... clarice Apr 2016 #168

Yea that's exactly what I'm saying. Phlem Apr 2016 #171

Whatever it takes. nt clarice Apr 2016 #174

To assume otherwise would be naive. Phlem Apr 2016 #175

You know what they say about "assume".nt clarice Apr 2016 #178

Whats laughable .99center Apr 2016 #108

Ironic, given your tag line dreamnightwind Apr 2016 #244

Have you done any research on this matter? happyslug Apr 2016 #185

Everyone will get a UBI under this system (even those who work) - so someone who cleans MillennialDem Apr 2016 #204

Amen..... daleanime Apr 2016 #18

To add to that, JoeyT Apr 2016 #53

Yep. Recursion Apr 2016 #62

Basic Braudel. malthaussen Apr 2016 #104

+1 nt laundry_queen Apr 2016 #241

And Old Codger Apr 2016 #72

Not everyone will behave in the same way Politicub Apr 2016 #15

Yes, but how or why should we fund everyone on the planet? nt clarice Apr 2016 #95

I don't believe the US should fund everyone on the planet Politicub Apr 2016 #96

cool with that...but doesn't UBI stand for UNIVERSAL basic income?nt clarice Apr 2016 #100

How do we prevent non-Americans from taking advantage? Build a wall? jonno99 Apr 2016 #105

Not sure - but I doubt the solution includes building a wall Politicub Apr 2016 #119

A UBI would probably be a crappy amount of money. Oneironaut Apr 2016 #22

Just enough for basic housing... DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #33

Where do you live that $600 a month would provide basic housing? Lydia Leftcoast Apr 2016 #39

You are right. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #45

"special class of housing" - I think we call those "slums". Nope, we've got to do better...nt jonno99 Apr 2016 #107

My low income housing rent is $700/mo.. Wounded Bear Apr 2016 #44

See my answer in post #45. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #46

yup... it's a BAD plan.nt clarice Apr 2016 #94

Interesting premise. Not something I have looked at yet. Xyzse Apr 2016 #5

Oddly enough it was an idea from Nixon Recursion Apr 2016 #7

Nixon was an interesting fellow. Xyzse Apr 2016 #8

The thing with Nixon was that he was still a New Dealer at his core forjusticethunders Apr 2016 #131

I see... Thank you for telling me. Xyzse Apr 2016 #154

UBI is the future EdwardBernays Apr 2016 #9

+1,000,000 daleanime Apr 2016 #37

No worries and... EdwardBernays Apr 2016 #73

Exactly right. - eom dreamnightwind Apr 2016 #245

That is crazy. Poor people have to suffer. Helen Borg Apr 2016 #14

Forced life-skills classes are condescending. Oneironaut Apr 2016 #21

The question becomes..... daleanime Apr 2016 #41

People need jobs the way the economy is currently constructed... malthaussen Apr 2016 #97

I'm not opposed to drug testing for this sort of thing .99center Apr 2016 #133

First, as I asked above, where is this wealth coming from? Serious question. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #25

Soylent green... think Apr 2016 #29

UBI is a way to improve on capitalism and democracy pberq Apr 2016 #31

Paying people NOT to be "consumers," to walk lightly upon the earth, is a great idea. hunter Apr 2016 #35

Right because people are going to magically stop wanting things. EllieBC Apr 2016 #67

Um, what??? hunter Apr 2016 #79

"Paying people not to be consumers". EllieBC Apr 2016 #99

As Napoleon pointed out, with enough medals he could win any war. malthaussen Apr 2016 #114

Some things are worse than others... hunter Apr 2016 #150

You may hate those things but not everyone does. EllieBC Apr 2016 #218

Am I telling you how to live? hunter Apr 2016 #240

I'm reminded of an article from the NY Times in the 1970s Lydia Leftcoast Apr 2016 #36

Isn't it funny... malthaussen Apr 2016 #118

cool we can all quit our jobs -- saturnsring Apr 2016 #40

And?...Does this person not deserve the means to access the basic necessities of life? Marengo Apr 2016 #50

some people choose not to think through their knee jerk replies. Javaman Apr 2016 #60

It truly is! Especially as the UBI/GMI concept is progressive and so desperately needed... Marengo Apr 2016 #65

If he's not willing to life a finger and help other people NobodyHere Apr 2016 #74

nope my point was a response to the article that said saturnsring Apr 2016 #153

But would you? subterranean Apr 2016 #64

Yep, it's funny. malthaussen Apr 2016 #142

no i wouldnt but most people dont make that any more - but if i were working 2-3 jobs saturnsring Apr 2016 #156

Perhaps that would force business into a living wage then Marrah_G Apr 2016 #236

So unemployable homeless people deserve to die. Got it. hunter Apr 2016 #82

no they dont saturnsring Apr 2016 #161

If we don't try it and soon astrophuss42 Apr 2016 #42

A recent report on the increasing interest worldwide in UBI pberq Apr 2016 #47

Sam Seder had a great GBI scientist/advocate interview on awhile back. byronius Apr 2016 #48

I tend to agree. malthaussen Apr 2016 #149

Nixon proposed this concept half a century ago DaveT Apr 2016 #52

This makes particular sense . . . Richard D Apr 2016 #54

We have the resources on this planet to feed, cloth, teach. house every human being Marrah_G Apr 2016 #56

Yep. There are no shortages Recursion Apr 2016 #63

What SHOULD our society be structured on? nt clarice Apr 2016 #123

I'm not sure Marrah_G Apr 2016 #215

So how would you be compensated for your labor? nt clarice Apr 2016 #264

We should definitely study that and see what some of the top minds come up with Marrah_G Apr 2016 #266

Perhaps...but with my natural distrust... clarice Apr 2016 #270

I am not talking about think tanks or politicians Marrah_G Apr 2016 #271

Agreed 1000%.nt clarice Apr 2016 #273

We have to go to this eventually, once the machines make it impossible for many people to find jobs. tclambert Apr 2016 #57

A UBI is the only thing that will save this country zalinda Apr 2016 #58

"but the vast majority will contribute back to society" Do you have statistics?...or clarice Apr 2016 #125

Of course, the reverse question applies. malthaussen Apr 2016 #151

As you mentioned in a previous post... Human nature. nt clarice Apr 2016 #169

Maybe human nature as you've experienced it zalinda Apr 2016 #194

I also step up as often as possible...but I fear that we are in the minority. nt clarice Apr 2016 #196

That's been my thinking for awhile. PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #68

Free housing is proven to greatly reduce joblessness, drug abuse, hospital costs, wherever done. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #77

Where is this done? (or did you forget to add the sarcasm thingee?) nt jonno99 Apr 2016 #110

Links. Try to be progressive. There is no sarcasm about this. People's lives are at stake. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #157

Thanks for the info! nt jonno99 Apr 2016 #160

Utah comes to mind: malthaussen Apr 2016 #159

Thanks! nt jonno99 Apr 2016 #162

New York City Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #164

Yeah, I agree this is probably coming........... socialist_n_TN Apr 2016 #83

This is going to play out past the poor. Phlem Apr 2016 #88

I think it will happen later - rather than sooner: jonno99 Apr 2016 #112

Unfortunately I think your right. Phlem Apr 2016 #115

Super idea. Not going to happen in our lifetimes, though. HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #90

The problem with the idea that you just can't give people jwirr Apr 2016 #93

BOOM SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #139

Unfortunately most Americans left that idea back in Europe jwirr Apr 2016 #143

you might wat to get your hands on some of the late 70's early 80;s economist magazines SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #144

I was reading those magazines in those years. Unfortunately jwirr Apr 2016 #146

the "steady state economics" ideas were the ones that i have held close SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #147

Agreed but it is going to take a long time for most of the jwirr Apr 2016 #163

yep - "It means giving things up" SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #166

I was talking with another Bernie delegate at a convention. jwirr Apr 2016 #173

colorado? SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #176

No MN jwirr Apr 2016 #179

Noticing all the usual push backs. Phlem Apr 2016 #113

And, of course, completely give the wealthy a pass who are doing the same system gaming. HughBeaumont Apr 2016 #120

a symptom of what has happened to our society. Phlem Apr 2016 #130

How about guaranteeing a job? HassleCat Apr 2016 #127

So, then the question becomes... malthaussen Apr 2016 #138

Dignity of labor HassleCat Apr 2016 #141

In your opinion. malthaussen Apr 2016 #145

We already did this once. HassleCat Apr 2016 #152

Ah, I see. malthaussen Apr 2016 #167

FDR knew the dangers of having millions of young men out of work so he created jobs. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #197

I don't want them to pay their fair share. malthaussen Apr 2016 #198

A few points you ignore. BainsBane Apr 2016 #242

Du's freepers are outing themselves today Doctor_J Apr 2016 #180

Well... IndyV0te Apr 2016 #199

The problem with guarenteed minimum income is... Odin2005 Apr 2016 #207

In addition to raising my own children and now helping to care for my grandchildren, I took JDPriestly Apr 2016 #217

The fact is that it will have to happen eventually. Bonhomme Richard Apr 2016 #235

I would like to point out something in regards to many of the responses on this thread Marrah_G Apr 2016 #237

Finland OkSustainAg Apr 2016 #239

It Would Change Things For The Better colsohlibgal Apr 2016 #243

I'm all on board with this idea robertgodardfromnj Apr 2016 #249

This is the future paulthompson Apr 2016 #250

What Would Society Look Like with Universal Basic Income? eridani Apr 2016 #251

It does no good to teach people how to fish when there are no fish. raouldukelives Apr 2016 #253

A Basic Income should be reserved for those 45 and older Yavin4 Apr 2016 #267

K&R. An important conversation as we move into an increasingly automated world. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #272