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gratuitous

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13. Go tell that to the Iraqis

Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:32 PM

Apr 2016

And the Guatemalans. And the Iranians. And the Salvadorans. And the Chileans. And the . . . well, you should get the idea by now. Because if you don't - and there's never been a shortage of folks who don't - you never do and never will. What's a few million more bodies on the altar of the High Church of Redemptive Violence? We are "in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er."

There is no other way.

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"There is no 'just war'" [View all] rug Apr 2016 OP

bout time!!! berniepdx420 Apr 2016 #1

kissinger and $hillary had long talks about this one SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #2

So fight the Germans to a surrender in WWII was wrong? EX500rider Apr 2016 #3

Was funding the Nazis' rise to power wrong? rug Apr 2016 #5

Yup. Bradical79 Apr 2016 #6

The US government didn't fund the Nazi parties rise to power. EX500rider Apr 2016 #7

If you consider IBM automating the Holocaust doing business to be "doing business." rug Apr 2016 #11

Who a private company does business is irrelevant to whether fighting the Nazi's was right. EX500rider Apr 2016 #14

The hell it is. rug Apr 2016 #20

So there has to be zero trade with a country pre-war to make fighting a evil regime just? EX500rider Apr 2016 #22

pLet's put ot this way. If your trade is weapons you should expect a war. rug Apr 2016 #24

The US wan't selling weapons to either Germany or Japan....next... EX500rider Apr 2016 #25

Hold on, there are some facts in the way. rug Apr 2016 #36

They used tanks and planes and rifles all made in Germany/Austria/Czech EX500rider Apr 2016 #43

or was it wrong for the Soviets to fight against the Germans? PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #27

Another thing that is wrong is that we have given the idea jwirr Apr 2016 #83

Actions taken by warmongers. lunatica Apr 2016 #102

Ever read Twain's "The War Prayer"? Scootaloo Apr 2016 #37

"But there is never a just war." In your opinion. EX500rider Apr 2016 #40

No, in point of fact Scootaloo Apr 2016 #42

Will unjust things happen in a just war? yes.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #44

By that logic, any level of atrocity can be excused if the ends is deemed "just" Scootaloo Apr 2016 #45

You're talking to people whose eyes moisten as they watch Rambo movies... Human101948 Apr 2016 #126

Again, unjust individual acts in a just war don't change the righteousness of the cause. EX500rider Apr 2016 #94

Except that there is no such thing as a "just war" Scootaloo Apr 2016 #97

Actually if a bomb aimed at a military asset misses and hit a house.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #100

I was not aware that the point of a tire was to explode and kill people in a blast radius Scootaloo Apr 2016 #103

You're asking if the German people who elected and supported Hitler.... EX500rider Apr 2016 #105

That's a kind of odd position for an American to take Scootaloo Apr 2016 #106

Most Americans think the war against Germany was justified so not a usual position at all. EX500rider Apr 2016 #122

Do most Americans think they themselves deserve to be killed by Iraqis? Scootaloo Apr 2016 #127

Have we been feeding Iraqis into ovens? EX500rider Apr 2016 #128

Americans elected and supported people who destroyed Iraq. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #129

No, we did not commit Total War unlike the Germans. EX500rider Apr 2016 #130

"Overthrowing a dictator and installing a democracy" Scootaloo Apr 2016 #131

Are you under the impression they are not? EX500rider Apr 2016 #132

What's your definition of 'just', if a 'necessary' war is not a 'just' one? muriel_volestrangler Apr 2016 #95

"based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair." Scootaloo Apr 2016 #98

So do you think it was morally wrong and/or unfair for Britain and France muriel_volestrangler Apr 2016 #101

I am not a believer in ahisma. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #104

It follows along the same lines as torture or the death penalty gratuitous Apr 2016 #4

Go tell that to the Kosovars and the Tutsis. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #10

Go tell that to the Iraqis gratuitous Apr 2016 #13

Just because there are wrong wars doesn't mean there aren't just wars also. EX500rider Apr 2016 #17

Congratulations, you've convinced me of the existence of unjust wars. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #41

First, it's Kosovars. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #39

+1 ronnie624 Apr 2016 #68

I'm Jewish. Fuck that. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #8

Apply the just war doctrine to the Mideast. rug Apr 2016 #15

And I suppose the US should have "turned the other cheek" after Pearl Harbor.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #9

Mayne they should have thought of that before selling the Second Ave El to the Empire of japan. rug Apr 2016 #16

So the US companies selling scrap metal was somehow responsible for Japan's wars of aggression? EX500rider Apr 2016 #19

Scrap metal, oil, food, technology, trade agreements may have had asomething to do with it. rug Apr 2016 #23

I am sure both Germany & Japan both thought their wars of aggression/mass murder were "just" EX500rider Apr 2016 #29

They both had reams of rationales for it, all sing the notion of "just war". rug Apr 2016 #32

But the Allies were right in this case. EX500rider Apr 2016 #34

Which is exactly what was said in 1919. rug Apr 2016 #38

Yeah, and history includes the Spanish Inquisition, too. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #54

Ah, another one-trick pony. rug Apr 2016 #57

Awwww Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #60

No, just the usual assholery. rug Apr 2016 #61

clearly. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #64

Well if IBM is somehow responsible for WWII then I suppose the Vatican is too... EX500rider Apr 2016 #72

Stopping Hitler wasn't justified? liberal N proud Apr 2016 #12

Was supporting Hitler on his rise justified? rug Apr 2016 #18

The US had several million companies I imagine in the 1930's. EX500rider Apr 2016 #21

Sure, what's a few bushels of wheat. rug Apr 2016 #26

Pre-war trade would be zero excuse for not fighting the Nazi's or the Japanese. EX500rider Apr 2016 #28

There would be no Nazis if sympathetic industrialsts lik eFord didn't trade with them. rug Apr 2016 #30

The US could have had zero trade with Germany or Japan.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #31

That's an abysmal misreading of history. rug Apr 2016 #33

Wrong EX500rider Apr 2016 #50

Ideology without weapons is opinion. rug Apr 2016 #52

The US supplied neither the majority of trade or weapons. EX500rider Apr 2016 #56

How much did it supply? rug Apr 2016 #58

Weapons...none.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #63

That's a bullshit dodge. Adrahil Apr 2016 #47

The whole WW2!!! dodge is bullshit. rug Apr 2016 #48

About time. AngryAmish Apr 2016 #35

I only wish that the real world were so black and white. Glassunion Apr 2016 #46

I don't think the Vatican- who tells people not to masturbate and defends child abusing priests Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #49

What wars do you consider necessary and just now? rug Apr 2016 #51

Like I said, I don't accept the Vatican's moral authority. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #53

And I don't care what you think of the Vatican's moral authority. rug Apr 2016 #55

You didnt qualify your earlier question or statement with "today", didja. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #59

No. I said "now". rug Apr 2016 #62

what am I supposed to be answering, again? Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #65

One you're uncomfortable with. rug Apr 2016 #70

You're right, at this exact moment, none. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #71

If you think it's a black-and-whit statement, it says more about your thinking than the statement. rug Apr 2016 #110

Okay, if you say so. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #120

Fighting against ISIS or Boko Haram, to pick an obvious couple. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #78

Among other problems with that, is that neither is a state at all. rug Apr 2016 #80

Exactly. W insisted going to war with a state for something jwirr Apr 2016 #86

Unfortunately neither the Taliban/ISIS/BokoHarum respond to summons or warrants. EX500rider Apr 2016 #93

Yes, I was talking about how we could have avoided this mess jwirr Apr 2016 #119

At what point was Al Qaeda in Afghanistan small enough for a police response? EX500rider Apr 2016 #124

I am talking about 9/11. We decided to use military action jwirr Apr 2016 #125

Yes and at the time AQ lived in large groups well armed in camps... EX500rider Apr 2016 #133

Police were and did find and arrest terrorists all across the jwirr Apr 2016 #135

Several hundred well armed terrorists in the middle of Afghanistan were not going to be arrested. EX500rider Apr 2016 #136

It's the same reason Colombia doesn't arrest FARC & Philippines doesn't arrest Abu Sayyaf EX500rider Apr 2016 #137

Even Bernie voted for the war in Afghanistan. Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #66

Yes. rug Apr 2016 #69

So the Taliban provides sanctuary to AQ who kills over 3,000 American in 1 hr.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #73

The Taliban were there for years before 9/11. rug Apr 2016 #75

And your response to 9-11 would be what? A sternly written note? EX500rider Apr 2016 #76

It would not be to invade and kill over 25,000 civilians. rug Apr 2016 #77

Actually if you looked into it you would find that 80% of civilian deaths.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #79

Read the link I gave you. rug Apr 2016 #81

Here: EX500rider Apr 2016 #87

No, in this case the source can speak for itself. rug Apr 2016 #109

They cover military subjects with more detail and authority then any other site, incld janes. EX500rider Apr 2016 #123

here, I'll even help: EX500rider Apr 2016 #89

And here's the Guardian: EX500rider Apr 2016 #96

Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. nt Rex Apr 2016 #67

Is that the same bible that says: EX500rider Apr 2016 #74

Oh yeah and street running with rivers of blood etc.. Rex Apr 2016 #82

Context? jwirr Apr 2016 #85

Just responding to a biblical quote with another one. EX500rider Apr 2016 #88

No I meant the context that this Bible quote was found in. I jwirr Apr 2016 #90

NP it's Luke 22:36 EX500rider Apr 2016 #91

Thank you. jwirr Apr 2016 #92

Just when I thought I couldn't despise the Roman Catholic Church more Albertoo Apr 2016 #84

There you go despising the RCC for advocating peace. rug Apr 2016 #107

We have Torquemada to throw around, what do you have in comparison? Rex Apr 2016 #121

A good amount of posts in this thread. rug Apr 2016 #134

This Roman Catholic position doesn't advocate peace, it advocates lunacy Albertoo Apr 2016 #140

Someone is advocating lunacy. rug Apr 2016 #141

You completely diverted from the issue Albertoo Apr 2016 #142

I take it you're ready to attack these "radical Islamic" countries to stop it. rug Apr 2016 #143

Again, you're straying from the naivety of Pope Francis Albertoo Apr 2016 #144

Name one today. rug Apr 2016 #145

Liberating the North Koreans from their insane regime comes to mind. Albertoo Apr 2016 #146

On whose authority? rug Apr 2016 #147

None. That's why nobody can do anything. But that was not the issue. Albertoo Apr 2016 #148

You consider justice a "totally useless word"? rug Apr 2016 #149

Little word games to avoid the issue. Albertoo Apr 2016 #150

I was born Jewish in England during WWII DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #99

Were England's pre-war maneuvers with Nazi Germany to check Bolshevist Russia part of that? rug Apr 2016 #108

Irrelevant to what I said. DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #111

Not in the least. Their anti-communist strategems were part of the bundle that led to the moment rug Apr 2016 #112

Attempts to contain the Soviet Union had nothing to do with Hitler's desire to conquer Britain DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #113

It had much to do with enabling the Third Reich to attempt it. rug Apr 2016 #114

Bullshit. DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #115

That's persuasive. rug Apr 2016 #116

Yes, and I can see when it's not worth wasting my time with someone. DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #117

As can I. rug Apr 2016 #118

�What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #138

+1 rug Apr 2016 #139

The first thing the Vatican needs to do is remove the 600 or so Swiss troops from it's own defenses. braddy Apr 2016 #151

War and Nonviolence Sandersdemocrat2020 Apr 2016 #152

ITT: People thinking "no just war" means "all war is wrong and never should be fought" forjusticethunders Apr 2016 #153