General Discussion

Sandersdemocrat2020

(91 posts)

152. War and Nonviolence

Sun Apr 17, 2016, 09:34 PM

Apr 2016

I think that Nonviolence is a powerful tool and something to aspire to. On the other hand, there is a lot of Violence in Human Nature. Militancy and War have been with us throughout Human History. Should we Americans have fought against the British for our Independence? Should we have fought the Civil War? Should we have fought the Nazis in WW II? Personally, my answer to these questions is reluctantly, yes.

Still, if we could find a way to solve global problems without resorting to War, then we should do that. I think if Human Civilization is to persist and advance, we need to grow out of our tendency to make War and kill each other. This is certainly not easy to do, but I applaud the conference participants for making a stand on Nonviolence. Gandhi's Nonviolence helped overthrow British rule in India without a shot fired. That is powerful and something to aspire to.

Some Wars might be more "Just" than others, but War is at best a necessary evil. Yes, we should have opposed the Nazis as we did, but the War was a terrible thing. I think that it is good that Global Political actors like these conference people are pushing for Nonviolent alternatives to conflicts. War is something that a more advanced civilization should outgrow. If we can avoid the next War through Peace efforts like these, then that is all to the good.

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"There is no 'just war'" [View all] rug Apr 2016 OP

bout time!!! berniepdx420 Apr 2016 #1

kissinger and $hillary had long talks about this one SoLeftIAmRight Apr 2016 #2

So fight the Germans to a surrender in WWII was wrong? EX500rider Apr 2016 #3

Was funding the Nazis' rise to power wrong? rug Apr 2016 #5

Yup. Bradical79 Apr 2016 #6

The US government didn't fund the Nazi parties rise to power. EX500rider Apr 2016 #7

If you consider IBM automating the Holocaust doing business to be "doing business." rug Apr 2016 #11

Who a private company does business is irrelevant to whether fighting the Nazi's was right. EX500rider Apr 2016 #14

The hell it is. rug Apr 2016 #20

So there has to be zero trade with a country pre-war to make fighting a evil regime just? EX500rider Apr 2016 #22

pLet's put ot this way. If your trade is weapons you should expect a war. rug Apr 2016 #24

The US wan't selling weapons to either Germany or Japan....next... EX500rider Apr 2016 #25

Hold on, there are some facts in the way. rug Apr 2016 #36

They used tanks and planes and rifles all made in Germany/Austria/Czech EX500rider Apr 2016 #43

or was it wrong for the Soviets to fight against the Germans? PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #27

Another thing that is wrong is that we have given the idea jwirr Apr 2016 #83

Actions taken by warmongers. lunatica Apr 2016 #102

Ever read Twain's "The War Prayer"? Scootaloo Apr 2016 #37

"But there is never a just war." In your opinion. EX500rider Apr 2016 #40

No, in point of fact Scootaloo Apr 2016 #42

Will unjust things happen in a just war? yes.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #44

By that logic, any level of atrocity can be excused if the ends is deemed "just" Scootaloo Apr 2016 #45

You're talking to people whose eyes moisten as they watch Rambo movies... Human101948 Apr 2016 #126

Again, unjust individual acts in a just war don't change the righteousness of the cause. EX500rider Apr 2016 #94

Except that there is no such thing as a "just war" Scootaloo Apr 2016 #97

Actually if a bomb aimed at a military asset misses and hit a house.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #100

I was not aware that the point of a tire was to explode and kill people in a blast radius Scootaloo Apr 2016 #103

You're asking if the German people who elected and supported Hitler.... EX500rider Apr 2016 #105

That's a kind of odd position for an American to take Scootaloo Apr 2016 #106

Most Americans think the war against Germany was justified so not a usual position at all. EX500rider Apr 2016 #122

Do most Americans think they themselves deserve to be killed by Iraqis? Scootaloo Apr 2016 #127

Have we been feeding Iraqis into ovens? EX500rider Apr 2016 #128

Americans elected and supported people who destroyed Iraq. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #129

No, we did not commit Total War unlike the Germans. EX500rider Apr 2016 #130

"Overthrowing a dictator and installing a democracy" Scootaloo Apr 2016 #131

Are you under the impression they are not? EX500rider Apr 2016 #132

What's your definition of 'just', if a 'necessary' war is not a 'just' one? muriel_volestrangler Apr 2016 #95

"based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair." Scootaloo Apr 2016 #98

So do you think it was morally wrong and/or unfair for Britain and France muriel_volestrangler Apr 2016 #101

I am not a believer in ahisma. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #104

It follows along the same lines as torture or the death penalty gratuitous Apr 2016 #4

Go tell that to the Kosovars and the Tutsis. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #10

Go tell that to the Iraqis gratuitous Apr 2016 #13

Just because there are wrong wars doesn't mean there aren't just wars also. EX500rider Apr 2016 #17

Congratulations, you've convinced me of the existence of unjust wars. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #41

First, it's Kosovars. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #39

+1 ronnie624 Apr 2016 #68

I'm Jewish. Fuck that. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #8

Apply the just war doctrine to the Mideast. rug Apr 2016 #15

And I suppose the US should have "turned the other cheek" after Pearl Harbor.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #9

Mayne they should have thought of that before selling the Second Ave El to the Empire of japan. rug Apr 2016 #16

So the US companies selling scrap metal was somehow responsible for Japan's wars of aggression? EX500rider Apr 2016 #19

Scrap metal, oil, food, technology, trade agreements may have had asomething to do with it. rug Apr 2016 #23

I am sure both Germany & Japan both thought their wars of aggression/mass murder were "just" EX500rider Apr 2016 #29

They both had reams of rationales for it, all sing the notion of "just war". rug Apr 2016 #32

But the Allies were right in this case. EX500rider Apr 2016 #34

Which is exactly what was said in 1919. rug Apr 2016 #38

Yeah, and history includes the Spanish Inquisition, too. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #54

Ah, another one-trick pony. rug Apr 2016 #57

Awwww Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #60

No, just the usual assholery. rug Apr 2016 #61

clearly. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #64

Well if IBM is somehow responsible for WWII then I suppose the Vatican is too... EX500rider Apr 2016 #72

Stopping Hitler wasn't justified? liberal N proud Apr 2016 #12

Was supporting Hitler on his rise justified? rug Apr 2016 #18

The US had several million companies I imagine in the 1930's. EX500rider Apr 2016 #21

Sure, what's a few bushels of wheat. rug Apr 2016 #26

Pre-war trade would be zero excuse for not fighting the Nazi's or the Japanese. EX500rider Apr 2016 #28

There would be no Nazis if sympathetic industrialsts lik eFord didn't trade with them. rug Apr 2016 #30

The US could have had zero trade with Germany or Japan.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #31

That's an abysmal misreading of history. rug Apr 2016 #33

Wrong EX500rider Apr 2016 #50

Ideology without weapons is opinion. rug Apr 2016 #52

The US supplied neither the majority of trade or weapons. EX500rider Apr 2016 #56

How much did it supply? rug Apr 2016 #58

Weapons...none.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #63

That's a bullshit dodge. Adrahil Apr 2016 #47

The whole WW2!!! dodge is bullshit. rug Apr 2016 #48

About time. AngryAmish Apr 2016 #35

I only wish that the real world were so black and white. Glassunion Apr 2016 #46

I don't think the Vatican- who tells people not to masturbate and defends child abusing priests Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #49

What wars do you consider necessary and just now? rug Apr 2016 #51

Like I said, I don't accept the Vatican's moral authority. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #53

And I don't care what you think of the Vatican's moral authority. rug Apr 2016 #55

You didnt qualify your earlier question or statement with "today", didja. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #59

No. I said "now". rug Apr 2016 #62

what am I supposed to be answering, again? Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #65

One you're uncomfortable with. rug Apr 2016 #70

You're right, at this exact moment, none. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #71

If you think it's a black-and-whit statement, it says more about your thinking than the statement. rug Apr 2016 #110

Okay, if you say so. Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #120

Fighting against ISIS or Boko Haram, to pick an obvious couple. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2016 #78

Among other problems with that, is that neither is a state at all. rug Apr 2016 #80

Exactly. W insisted going to war with a state for something jwirr Apr 2016 #86

Unfortunately neither the Taliban/ISIS/BokoHarum respond to summons or warrants. EX500rider Apr 2016 #93

Yes, I was talking about how we could have avoided this mess jwirr Apr 2016 #119

At what point was Al Qaeda in Afghanistan small enough for a police response? EX500rider Apr 2016 #124

I am talking about 9/11. We decided to use military action jwirr Apr 2016 #125

Yes and at the time AQ lived in large groups well armed in camps... EX500rider Apr 2016 #133

Police were and did find and arrest terrorists all across the jwirr Apr 2016 #135

Several hundred well armed terrorists in the middle of Afghanistan were not going to be arrested. EX500rider Apr 2016 #136

It's the same reason Colombia doesn't arrest FARC & Philippines doesn't arrest Abu Sayyaf EX500rider Apr 2016 #137

Even Bernie voted for the war in Afghanistan. Nye Bevan Apr 2016 #66

Yes. rug Apr 2016 #69

So the Taliban provides sanctuary to AQ who kills over 3,000 American in 1 hr.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #73

The Taliban were there for years before 9/11. rug Apr 2016 #75

And your response to 9-11 would be what? A sternly written note? EX500rider Apr 2016 #76

It would not be to invade and kill over 25,000 civilians. rug Apr 2016 #77

Actually if you looked into it you would find that 80% of civilian deaths.. EX500rider Apr 2016 #79

Read the link I gave you. rug Apr 2016 #81

Here: EX500rider Apr 2016 #87

No, in this case the source can speak for itself. rug Apr 2016 #109

They cover military subjects with more detail and authority then any other site, incld janes. EX500rider Apr 2016 #123

here, I'll even help: EX500rider Apr 2016 #89

And here's the Guardian: EX500rider Apr 2016 #96

Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. nt Rex Apr 2016 #67

Is that the same bible that says: EX500rider Apr 2016 #74

Oh yeah and street running with rivers of blood etc.. Rex Apr 2016 #82

Context? jwirr Apr 2016 #85

Just responding to a biblical quote with another one. EX500rider Apr 2016 #88

No I meant the context that this Bible quote was found in. I jwirr Apr 2016 #90

NP it's Luke 22:36 EX500rider Apr 2016 #91

Thank you. jwirr Apr 2016 #92

Just when I thought I couldn't despise the Roman Catholic Church more Albertoo Apr 2016 #84

There you go despising the RCC for advocating peace. rug Apr 2016 #107

We have Torquemada to throw around, what do you have in comparison? Rex Apr 2016 #121

A good amount of posts in this thread. rug Apr 2016 #134

This Roman Catholic position doesn't advocate peace, it advocates lunacy Albertoo Apr 2016 #140

Someone is advocating lunacy. rug Apr 2016 #141

You completely diverted from the issue Albertoo Apr 2016 #142

I take it you're ready to attack these "radical Islamic" countries to stop it. rug Apr 2016 #143

Again, you're straying from the naivety of Pope Francis Albertoo Apr 2016 #144

Name one today. rug Apr 2016 #145

Liberating the North Koreans from their insane regime comes to mind. Albertoo Apr 2016 #146

On whose authority? rug Apr 2016 #147

None. That's why nobody can do anything. But that was not the issue. Albertoo Apr 2016 #148

You consider justice a "totally useless word"? rug Apr 2016 #149

Little word games to avoid the issue. Albertoo Apr 2016 #150

I was born Jewish in England during WWII DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #99

Were England's pre-war maneuvers with Nazi Germany to check Bolshevist Russia part of that? rug Apr 2016 #108

Irrelevant to what I said. DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #111

Not in the least. Their anti-communist strategems were part of the bundle that led to the moment rug Apr 2016 #112

Attempts to contain the Soviet Union had nothing to do with Hitler's desire to conquer Britain DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #113

It had much to do with enabling the Third Reich to attempt it. rug Apr 2016 #114

Bullshit. DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #115

That's persuasive. rug Apr 2016 #116

Yes, and I can see when it's not worth wasting my time with someone. DavidDvorkin Apr 2016 #117

As can I. rug Apr 2016 #118

�What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #138

+1 rug Apr 2016 #139

The first thing the Vatican needs to do is remove the 600 or so Swiss troops from it's own defenses. braddy Apr 2016 #151

War and Nonviolence Sandersdemocrat2020 Apr 2016 #152

ITT: People thinking "no just war" means "all war is wrong and never should be fought" forjusticethunders Apr 2016 #153