General Discussion

jeff47

(26,549 posts)

124. Yes

Wed Jun 6, 2012, 03:07 PM

Jun 2012

Because the ballots aren't only counted once.

In WI, they vote on paper ballots that are then run through an optical scanner. While it would be possible for a programmer to tweak the code in the scanner or tabulator, that runs into another check - manual counting.

In all places I'm aware of that use optical scanners, a small number of wards are randomly chosen and the paper ballots from those wards are counted by hand. That hand count is compared to the machine count. If the evil programmer changed the results, the hand count won't match, indicating a problem. (I admit I do not now WI law on this subject, they may not do this. I know several other states use this system, so I'm assuming WI does too.)

As a result, the only feasible way for the evil programmer to alter votes is to alter a small number of them. Altering a ton of votes is going to increase the chances that the manual count will find the hacking. Which means the evil programmer can't provide anywhere close to the margin of victory from last night.

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If an election was stolen and there's no evidence of it [View all] cali Jun 2012 OP

Exit polls varying from election results are considered cause for investigations. Scuba Jun 2012 #1

Exit polling models for recall elections do not exist GarroHorus Jun 2012 #3

Oh yes there is a model for exit polling on recall elections slackmaster Jun 2012 #6

They counted the votes. Walker won by a huge margin. GarroHorus Jun 2012 #9

Not. When the Republicans cheated every other way they could, why are you so quick... Scuba Jun 2012 #12

There was no cheating going on in Wisconsin GarroHorus Jun 2012 #20

OK... Scuba Jun 2012 #26

I don't care if there is or isn't a manual recount GarroHorus Jun 2012 #38

No reason in your opinion. Others disagree. Scuba Jun 2012 #43

And others disagree about Obama's birth certificate GarroHorus Jun 2012 #45

You're on record as stating there's "no legitimate reason to launch an investigation"... Scuba Jun 2012 #50

200,000 votes GarroHorus Jun 2012 #53

One could rig the scanners to steal 200,000 votes as easily as one. Scuba Jun 2012 #54

No, they really couldn't GarroHorus Jun 2012 #58

which part of central tabulator don't you understand We Want Peace Jun 2012 #61

Your trolling is pretty obvious GarroHorus Jun 2012 #62

Oooooooh Noooooooooos SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #153

Your ignorance is boundless.... Scuba Jun 2012 #65

No, it couldn't GarroHorus Jun 2012 #68

Again, your ignorance is boundless... Scuba Jun 2012 #71

I object because it is ridiculous GarroHorus Jun 2012 #72

No conspiracy required. Scuba Jun 2012 #73

Now you're just being obtuse GarroHorus Jun 2012 #74

You've got nothing. I haven't claimed conspiracy, only cause to manually count. Scuba Jun 2012 #75

I keep comenting because you've presented nothing GarroHorus Jun 2012 #76

The margin of victory is not in the equation. Do you think those dictators with 98% wins... Scuba Jun 2012 #77

You appear to be th one who is not too bright GarroHorus Jun 2012 #78

You apparently signed up here to defend the election results. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #158

You apparently cannot decipher dates. GarroHorus Jun 2012 #165

i can decipher post counts, & you've made the highest proportion of yours in the last two days. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #168

Yes, I have GarroHorus Jun 2012 #169

You need to put on the foil hat on gmee2 Jun 2012 #97

Hahahaha, your really funny libertypirate Jun 2012 #177

You're spelling you're incorrectly GarroHorus Jun 2012 #178

The easiest way would be to flip it completely We Want Peace Jun 2012 #60

And I think that is exactly what happened. zeemike Jun 2012 #80

how many students are there in the UW system?? PatrynXX Jun 2012 #93

More importantly, how many students in the UW system have left for the summer... GarroHorus Jun 2012 #98

They went home to their communities and gmee2 Jun 2012 #173

That's enough in a democracy. The Wielding Truth Jun 2012 #79

One other point - I can't say how it is truedelphi Jun 2012 #111

The answer for that is to sign up to be an election judge. MineralMan Jun 2012 #137

your disagreement doesn't alter the facts either. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #157

That's your opinion. You have a lot of faith in the Republicans not cheating. History shows that sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #147

What you are saying is you doubt the integrity of Ray La Follette GarroHorus Jun 2012 #149

I am saying that to deny that Republicans cheat is like denying that grass is green. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #151

And I am saying that for the REpublicans to cheat on the scale you are suggesting... GarroHorus Jun 2012 #152

But it was not I who suggested anything, I have no idea if they tried, or even succeeded this sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #166

But it is abnormal to think that GarroHorus Jun 2012 #167

Uh, you could not be more wrong. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #176

Then present the damned evidence GarroHorus Jun 2012 #179

Face it gmee2 Jun 2012 #174

More ballots were delivered to precincts that ran short. Printers were on standby all day. Thegonagle Jun 2012 #130

"Precincts that ran short had MUCH higher turnout than predicted (other precincts didn't). " Scuba Jun 2012 #143

Thanks, now I don't have to respond to the, er, other poster. Scuba Jun 2012 #11

Doesn't that presume, though, that Seeking Serenity Jun 2012 #5

Exit poll variance is not proof of anything, but a good indicator and cause for audit. Scuba Jun 2012 #67

It could be a good indicator that ... oldhippie Jun 2012 #108

if that's the case, funny how exit polls have historically been used to predict elections, with HiPointDem Jun 2012 #159

Then present your evidence. Show those polls that varied. (nt) jeff47 Jun 2012 #13

Exit polls are inherently unreliable Shrek Jun 2012 #39

Manufactured consent- exit polls work in other countries We Want Peace Jun 2012 #56

exit polls have been around a long time. but suddenly in the 90s they became highly inaccurate? HiPointDem Jun 2012 #160

Funny thing about exit polls... lumberjack_jeff Jun 2012 #55

The powers that be can't prove the election was fair and equitable either. fasttense Jun 2012 #83

Um, Florida 2000 was a 'fair election.' The Supreme Court's coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #129

Rec'd n/t GarroHorus Jun 2012 #2

claiming fraud where there is none is just being a sore loser. NightWatcher Jun 2012 #4

The Unions picked the fight? Care to explain that perspective? Scuba Jun 2012 #14

didnt the Unions start the recall effort? NightWatcher Jun 2012 #21

The fight started long before the recall started. And no, the recall wasn't started by the unions. Scuba Jun 2012 #34

Far worse, it's damaging. How many people said, "fuck it, it's all rigged anyway" and didn't bother? PeaceNikki Jun 2012 #19

PeaceNikki, I'm also very suspicious of those who scream "no fraud" when there are good .... Scuba Jun 2012 #46

I've never screamed any such thing. I've said no EVIDENCE of fraud, which is different. PeaceNikki Jun 2012 #48

I did not mean to imply that you are screaming anything, but disagree about the degree of difficulty Scuba Jun 2012 #52

Serious questions. Would it be difficult for a programmer from the voting machine truckin Jun 2012 #69

Yes jeff47 Jun 2012 #124

There are no manual counts in Wisconsin unless it is close enough for a recount or truckin Jun 2012 #135

The mantra seems to be: any results I support are fair and just 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #90

Well the Democratic Leadership truedelphi Jun 2012 #141

The fight was picked by walker, but nice revision of history. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #161

There are several obvious trolls operating on DU this morning slackmaster Jun 2012 #7

And there are several others telling members to "move along, nothing to see here". Scuba Jun 2012 #16

That might have something to do with the fact that there is nothing to see here. n/t GarroHorus Jun 2012 #22

If there is something to see SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #24

Here... Scuba Jun 2012 #28

Thats not proof that the election was stolen. SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #36

Nope, just cause for an investigation. Scuba Jun 2012 #42

I agree that there should be an investigation SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #47

Same folks bongbong Jun 2012 #140

Wow SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #154

Relax bongbong Jun 2012 #156

Paid? SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #163

So relax! bongbong Jun 2012 #170

So why would you post SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #171

You got an imagination, I'll say that for ya bongbong Jun 2012 #172

It sure is "deja vu" - ain't it. truedelphi Jun 2012 #114

I noticed that too n/t RZM Jun 2012 #35

Seems to be an uptick in number readying for elections. glinda Jun 2012 #91

Yeah and they were obvious RZM Jun 2012 #122

yes. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #162

The election may not have been stolen but the election process is flawed truckin Jun 2012 #8

Ah. WilliamPitt Jun 2012 #10

Don't you know SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #15

The reasoning in support of election fraud or even the need for coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #131

your right on this, of course - crazy talk does not help prepare for all the battles to come Douglas Carpenter Jun 2012 #17

Oh come on Capt. Obvious Jun 2012 #18

I wouldn't ask for proof; very little is absolute. But to those who are so confident in the outcome, truckin Jun 2012 #23

Because it was a rout Capt. Obvious Jun 2012 #32

Forget the exit polls. What does it being a rout have anything to do with it? truckin Jun 2012 #40

Checkmate! Capt. Obvious Jun 2012 #41

A random sample of wards are manually counted jeff47 Jun 2012 #125

No, they are not. truckin Jun 2012 #138

After rereading you post I agree that the polls were evidence that the election truckin Jun 2012 #44

How flawed could it be? Capt. Obvious Jun 2012 #51

Any system where the votes are counted secretly, by a private corporation, with no truckin Jun 2012 #57

True. Fortunately, WI doesn't have such a closed system. Thegonagle Jun 2012 #134

How do you watch a machine count a vote? nt truckin Jun 2012 #136

On one given election, perhaps.... Junkdrawer Jun 2012 #25

First question--Can WI elections be Diebolded? If so, in which counties? Jackpine Radical Jun 2012 #27

Rigging the scanners would be a very simple trick. Scuba Jun 2012 #30

This is the optimal solution. nt truckin Jun 2012 #33

Post removed Post removed Jun 2012 #116

It's also very simple to catch. jeff47 Jun 2012 #126

Absolutely true in my state. Does WI have this? I hope so. Thegonagle Jun 2012 #132

They do not do manual counts in WI to check the machines. truckin Jun 2012 #139

You fill out a paper ballot but the machine, programmed by a machine company employee, truckin Jun 2012 #31

Each of those machines have to be programmed, every time, for each election. RC Jun 2012 #64

Who set up this system and why? THINK! We Want Peace Jun 2012 #29

"If an election was stolen and there's no evidence of it"... planetc Jun 2012 #37

Excellent post, thanks. Scuba Jun 2012 #84

Did it make a noise? HopeHoops Jun 2012 #49

Thank you for a dose of rationality. grantcart Jun 2012 #59

"Get the evidence and present it" yodermon Jun 2012 #63

Excellent counter, thanks. Scuba Jun 2012 #85

+1. Thanks for a realist's view. pacalo Jun 2012 #164

and even when there's a lot of evidence ManyShadesOf Jun 2012 #66

Election thieves have had since 2000 to learn how to do it! ancianita Jun 2012 #70

It is just mind boggling felix_numinous Jun 2012 #81

+1 Scuba Jun 2012 #86

Who were the demonstrators? leftstreet Jun 2012 #100

Reprogramming Diebold voting machines is a plausible, probable option. hue Jun 2012 #82

Great post, thank you. Scuba Jun 2012 #87

Thanks hue for that link. fasttense Jun 2012 #88

If there's no evidence of it why do you assume it was stolen? 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #89

Because it is not transparent and RepubliCONS are cheats. fasttense Jun 2012 #95

There is historical evidence of cheating on both sides 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #104

+1 Blue Owl Jun 2012 #148

Your reply does not follow logic. I did not "assume it was stolen". hue Jun 2012 #99

"Please do not put words in my mouth unless you quote me." Hah, wow 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #103

where did cali "assume it was stolen" if that's who you were responding to... hue Jun 2012 #117

I was responding to the gist of the OP 4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #142

well it was likely stolen but on the basis of last minute law changes for students PatrynXX Jun 2012 #92

Evidence impossible to obtain Stevepol Jun 2012 #94

Well said Stevepol fasttense Jun 2012 #101

Right. The election is unverifiable. We take their word for it, and shut up, or else get ridiculed bleever Jun 2012 #105

U.S. citizens could learn something from Brazil and Costa Rica... polichick Jun 2012 #115

To cry stolen when it was a wipeout taught_me_patience Jun 2012 #96

that scenario exists probably only in your mind. I never had that impression. hue Jun 2012 #106

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence taught_me_patience Jun 2012 #112

from response #82 hacking Diebolds does NOT leave evidence... hue Jun 2012 #118

Lemme highlight the part you missed jeff47 Jun 2012 #127

6% is NOT a wipe-out fasttense Jun 2012 #109

This type of complacency is exactly what Rove and the repukes want. Zoeisright Jun 2012 #102

"This type of complacency is exactly what Rove and the repukes want." ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2012 #107

Because after an election the cheating hurts more. fasttense Jun 2012 #110

Was our voting system fair and accurate in 2008? (n/m) ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2012 #120

Looks like both parties want that kind of complacency... polichick Jun 2012 #113

Venting is, at worst, a most benign form of releasing our frustrations. LanternWaste Jun 2012 #119

If an election can be stolen without leaving publicly obvious evidence, gkhouston Jun 2012 #121

People don't like their "team" to lose elections, myself included. But on this board there is a bad apocalypsehow Jun 2012 #123

Ahhhhh, but don't you know that the evidence is SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #128

Rather than "some nefarious vote-fraud conspiracy," planetc Jun 2012 #133

Why is it that no candidate or Party Official is willing to make such an allegation? brooklynite Jun 2012 #144

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... planetc Jun 2012 #146

Elections should be transparent from beginning to end. Lars39 Jun 2012 #145

That problem is that the US election system has almost no credibility anymore Cali_Democrat Jun 2012 #150

"shut up about everything" HiPointDem Jun 2012 #155

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Cerridwen Jun 2012 #175