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Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
129. I've had much time to do things either more pressing or more enjoyable...
Sat Apr 30, 2016, 01:59 PM
Apr 2016

...than pointing out in painful detail why a ridiculous position is unworthy of my time and attention, especially when one considers that those who hold ridiculous positions and those who lack the knack for critical self-reflection necessary to change positions are typically cut from the same cloth. But no matter. It's Caturday, so here's why everything you've said so far is a metric cartload of bullshit.

Fact: Informed, educated (including or esp. self-educated) patients have the best outcomes.


For most patients, the primary source of information on their health is their physician, so it also helps if those treating the patients know what they're doing. Medical doctors usually go to medical school. Chiropractors, accupuncturists, naturopaths, and other peddlers of woo do not.

Study up your symptoms. Listen to your Medical Doctor (allopathic) / Naturopath. Ask lots of questions. Then study the diagnosis. Get second opinions for serious matters, time permitting.


With all that bouncing around between different PCP's and specialists, it's a good thing we have single payer healthcare to absorb the co... oh, right.

Fact: Naturopaths rarely have as much training and education as medical doctors. A few have more than most MDs (nothing is 100% one way or the other).


How many is "a few"? Can you reccomend any of them?

Pro tip: Naturopaths didn't get to be so popular by being honest about their credentials.

Better pro tip: Those few naturopaths who do have strong medical credentials still lie to people. See Dr. Oz.

Fact: Medical doctors are not generally trained in and not generally as open to alternative medicine as they should be and especially not as understanding of nutrition as they should be. Some are. Note: nothing is 100% one way or the other.


This fact is not actually a fact.

Medical researchers are constantly testing "natural remedies" for their therapeutic uses and effectiveness. Anyone current on their medical education should have a pretty good idea of where things stand. Seeing as many medical doctors must complete Continuing Medical Education (CME) credits to keep their jobs while naturopaths suffer no such compunction, it's a good bet your doctor knows more about the effectiveness of natural remedies than the woo peddler down the street.

This might be anecdotal, but it is worth pointing out that almost every medical college has a few faculty looking into alternative medicine as either primary or supportive treatments. How many woo-schools have actual physicians teaching the next generation of woo-peddlers actual medicine?

Are there exceptions? Sure. But honestly, what are the fucking odds?

Fact: Medical doctors tend to over-prescribe pills and surgery (because that is what they primarily study).


This fact is actually half-a-fact.

Doctors, as a trend, overprescribe. But it isn't because "that's what they study" (it's because in many cases, that's what patients want) and it doesn't mean your doctor is over-prescribing.

Fact: Naturopaths under-prescribe pills and surgery (because they aren't allowed to), but many of them (not all) will refer patients to MDs when appropriate.


Right. Naturopaths will refer you to someone who knows what they're doing. What, exactly, does that say about naturopathy?

Bottom-line: Trust science, inform yourself, keep an open mind, choose less medicine when it is a reasonable first approach and only when reasonable, stay rational and cautious, be ready to decide quickly when necessary, don't avoid drugs / surgery when it makes sense especially after trying other approaches.


Bottom-line: Naturopaths are not honest. They lie. They disseminate information that is not true to people who are either too trusting or too ideologically invested in "nature" to make informed decisions.

On paper, your suggestion makes sense. In practice... seriously, man. You need to get out more.

For example, I use very little doctoring (I know I have been very lucky so far) and place the highest priority on good nutrition & exercise.


Cool story, bro, but that's not naturopathy. That's common sense. Any doctor worth a fuck will tell you to do exactly that. And the naturopaths aren't peddling diet and exercise. They're peddling magic potions made from onion juice and pancake syrup to treat actual medical problems requiring actual medicine to treat.

Again, you're completely out of touch with the reality of the situation. People aren't using naturopathy as a preventative medicine with the intention of seeking actual medical treatment when necessary; they are using naturopathy as primary care, and doing so because the fucking naturopaths have turned anti-medical paranoia into a fucking cottage industry.

You don't bring hundreds of patients through your doors by playing on fears of the medical industry and expect them go to an actual doctor when they get actual sick. And you can't expect people to make informed decisions when you owe the entirety of your livelihood to spreading misinformation.

TL;DR: you can't rely on the average person to make an informed decision because the average person is no longer able to discern the difference between actual information and misinformation spread by the naturopathic industry. People making bad decision isn't the problem, the naturopaths are.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

K&R for science and reason! nt Dr Hobbitstein Apr 2016 #1
Unfortunately, those that choose naturopaths over medical doctors have rejected reason altogether. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #3
Any of the naturopaths I've known would recomend just that JackInGreen Apr 2016 #28
Yes, and U.S. law emphatically does not regard Hortensis Apr 2016 #60
Uh, many of them think otherwise. HuckleB Apr 2016 #69
It should be illegal HassleCat Apr 2016 #2
Dr. Quackenbush, ND (Not a Doctor) R&K nt longship Apr 2016 #4
What is your problem with woo? LAGC Apr 2016 #5
It's difficult to argue with such sound reasoning. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #13
You forgot chi. It's all about chi, dude. I mean....woah, chi. whatthehey Apr 2016 #22
Of course it's all about the Chi!! EX500rider Apr 2016 #119
Well my wife have been messed over with medical doctors too hankthecrank Apr 2016 #6
What "good cures" did doctors eliminate? HuckleB Apr 2016 #7
They call you crank for a reason shenmue Apr 2016 #11
Ha! You beat me to it n/t PasadenaTrudy Apr 2016 #54
Cool story, bro. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #15
I agree std. healthcare messed up. Too much about $ and networkbuilding /removing independnt drs and lunasun Apr 2016 #25
And they care more about how much they can bill you... scscholar Apr 2016 #55
Hogwash. HuckleB Apr 2016 #59
Are you trying to post on a smartphone or is something else going on? snooper2 Apr 2016 #68
A fairly extensive study of homeopathic remedies was recently conducted by—well, I Gene Debs Apr 2016 #8
I bet they're good for treating dehydration elljay Apr 2016 #27
I also heard about that study robbob Apr 2016 #48
Yet it's remarkable how widespread the products are FBaggins Apr 2016 #81
Whole Foods and its imitators like New Seasons sell it in the impulse section. HuckleB Apr 2016 #106
Homeopathy isn't a protected term, anyone can label any supplement as "homeopathic" and... Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #109
Same with chiropractors... CanSocDem Apr 2016 #9
Nobody is a doctor? Are you kidding? shenmue Apr 2016 #12
Uhm, yeah. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #23
Obviously... CanSocDem Apr 2016 #35
Stop taking the word of accredited medical schools and take yours instead? cleanhippie Apr 2016 #40
It's about time we stopped pretending... MattSh Apr 2016 #10
Lifespan in ancient times was 30 if you were lucky shenmue Apr 2016 #14
A large reason for this was death in childhood and childbirth OnlinePoker Apr 2016 #70
I'll bet trauma decreased the average lifespan considerably. Wilms Apr 2016 #111
I'm sure you're trying to make a point, but I'm not sure you know what it is. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #17
Okay sure, getting ill might not kill ya...but a broken bone or any number of internal Rex Apr 2016 #20
Sure they did. It's just that whatthehey Apr 2016 #26
1/3 to 1/2 of Europe died of the plague. Today we can treat it with a $4 antibiotic. LeftyMom Apr 2016 #33
People died much younger on average before modern medicine. LeftishBrit Apr 2016 #36
The median is more informative than the average dreamnightwind Apr 2016 #117
True but even if you only take the adult life expectancy, things have improved a lot LeftishBrit Apr 2016 #118
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Apr 2016 #44
Jesus fucking Christ, the evidence is right in front of your eyes, visit a graveyard... Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #46
My mother almost died as a child of scarletina. That was only 65 years ago. Starry Messenger Apr 2016 #133
Here come the anti-science people! shenmue Apr 2016 #16
Like clockwork. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #18
So how's that big doctor strike in the UK going? (eom) CanSocDem Apr 2016 #37
Don't know. I don't live in the UK. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #41
Big Pseudoscience! lol PasadenaTrudy Apr 2016 #57
Adults can make decisions, kids depend on adults...that is where I draw the line. Rex Apr 2016 #19
not to be confused with naturopathic physicians like the one who saved my life Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #21
Please, elaborate on that. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #24
Interesting. HuckleB Apr 2016 #32
i decided not to count that first doctor, since to be fair i only had a few symptoms back then Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #39
Interesting, so they use conventional methods of diagnosis, and then treats with alternative... Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #49
that was 10 years ago, a surgeon cured it. my NP diagnosed hashimotos Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #61
So, I'm assuming they didn't give you the "conventional" treatment plan for managing your.. Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #72
no, she did not prescribe a synthetic T4 and tell me to come back in 6months Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #77
Which is also prescribed by regular MDs all the time, though it isn't as preferred as the.... Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #108
NP? Now they're co-opting the letters for Nurse Practitioners? HuckleB Apr 2016 #76
No! i am on a tablet and too lazy to spell it out. lame Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #79
Zzzzzzz. HuckleB Apr 2016 #80
NDs i looked it up and a link to calm your fears about the money and quality issues Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #83
Pretend doctors should not be paid, period. HuckleB Apr 2016 #84
she was doing it wrong. from my link.. Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #87
You haven't even bothered to read a tiny bit of what she wrote. HuckleB Apr 2016 #88
You said it right here passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #101
And a lot of the content is nonsense, to boot. HuckleB Apr 2016 #104
Always does. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #42
except it didn't change, no matter your tag teaming Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #63
Sure. HuckleB Apr 2016 #64
If it makes you feel better to think that... cleanhippie Apr 2016 #66
prove i am lying instead of just insinuating Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #73
Meh. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #107
info link Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #38
See this just shows how much bullshit they are full off, from the first two sentences: Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #62
you are still purposely distorting the facts Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #67
What traditional methods? Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #71
Are you not concerned with the length of training to become a Naturopathic Doctor? passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #91
proof no one actually reads the links i posted. i guess my doc is best of both worlds Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #94
A dentist only needs four years of training passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #96
4+4 does not equal 8 in your world? Viva_La_Revolution Apr 2016 #97
a GP typically gets eleven to sixteen years of training. passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #99
Indeed. It's ludicrous. HuckleB Apr 2016 #100
What is a naturopathic physician? longship Apr 2016 #78
This Veteran was sick of pills.... chknltl Apr 2016 #29
PPI's might be necessary, especially for someone that has a lap-sleeve bypass. AtheistCrusader Apr 2016 #31
Lots of evidence-based medical doctors also recommend a change of diet. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Apr 2016 #47
I think most conventional doctors would recommend diet changes and other methods... Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #51
PPIs have always been not good for long-term use REP Apr 2016 #86
One thing to make sure of with acid reflux... roamer65 Apr 2016 #120
I have had a few episodes that may be related. chknltl Apr 2016 #132
The chiropractors that give babies 'adjustments' for colic should be first against the wall. AtheistCrusader Apr 2016 #30
At least Australia is looking to rectify that situation... kdmorris Apr 2016 #58
Gwyneth Paltrow's goop saved my life! progressoid Apr 2016 #34
Good heavens! It depends. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #43
That doesn't justify quackery. HuckleB Apr 2016 #50
Very true. JDPriestly Apr 2016 #56
The bean-bag in the microwave (heating pad) is evidence-based. cleanhippie Apr 2016 #65
No shit, I really don't understand this argument, there are a lot of remedies that are evidence... Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #74
Quit the BINARY thinking and wake up! Both 'sides' ! Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #52
Well, that's the most ridiculous thing I've read all goddamned day. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2016 #89
Well you can't find fault with it, so you make a personal attack. We see that. . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #92
I find plenty wrong with it. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2016 #98
You've had much time & 2 opportunities to actually post something meaningful, but Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #103
I've had much time to do things either more pressing or more enjoyable... Act_of_Reparation Apr 2016 #129
Thank you for responding in depth Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #134
Lots of good ideas here. Thanks. You're right that binary thinking is very hard for some people pnwmom Apr 2016 #114
that attitude is what let HIV run rampant in Honduras after it arrived 1983 MisterP Apr 2016 #53
Say what? HuckleB Apr 2016 #110
That's child abuse just making a child drink a horseradish and onion smoothie LynneSin Apr 2016 #75
Its hard to fix stupid. nt BootinUp Apr 2016 #82
Why one naturopath quit after watching her peers treat cancer patients HuckleB Apr 2016 #85
This message was self-deleted by its author felix_numinous Apr 2016 #90
The case mentioned in the OP was in a place with socialized medicine. EllieBC Apr 2016 #95
I just started following PasadenaTrudy Apr 2016 #93
Are you talking about Britt Hermes? HuckleB Apr 2016 #102
Yes! n/t PasadenaTrudy Apr 2016 #105
I'd like to see a study comparing results for naturopaths and regular docs. Stevepol Apr 2016 #112
Head to Naturopathic Diaries, and read the reality. HuckleB Apr 2016 #115
U.W. Medical Center, one of the top medical schools in the US, disagrees with you. pnwmom Apr 2016 #113
Yoyu used the term allopathic MattBaggins Apr 2016 #135
No, I didn't use the term. Those words came directly from the University of Washington web site. pnwmom Apr 2016 #138
DU progress Johnny2X2X Apr 2016 #116
+1 HuckleB Apr 2016 #122
For profit hospitals and high cost felix_numinous Apr 2016 #121
That's quite the conspiracy theory. HuckleB Apr 2016 #123
Seriously, where do you come up with this nonsense? ND's are being MURDERED? Seriously? cleanhippie Apr 2016 #125
The usual CT sites. Funny thing is that the poster mixed up two different conspiracies. HuckleB Apr 2016 #126
it would be better to provide education. AlbertCat Apr 2016 #127
My point was education felix_numinous Apr 2016 #128
Integrating scams and debunked "treatment" helps no one. HuckleB Apr 2016 #131
ABOUT alternative medicine in medical schools and to the public, AlbertCat Apr 2016 #136
Unfortunately, this nonsense is invading actual learning centers, too. HuckleB Apr 2016 #124
Homeopathy is totally useless Johnny2X2X Apr 2016 #130
I can't believe I forgot to rec this before! progressoid Apr 2016 #137
Some misinformation in this article (but the parents are still fucking morons) laundry_queen Apr 2016 #139
I was suffering from postpartum depression. My licensed naturopath recommended beer and marijuana .. HuckleB May 2016 #140
Naturopath gets light reprimand for doping documentary involvement HuckleB May 2016 #141
I already don't. But I get what you're saying. Iggo May 2016 #142
Naturopaths have no standard of care. HuckleB May 2016 #143
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