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still_one

(98,883 posts)

73. The point is our involvment in that war was initiated by that unprovoked attack.

Tue May 31, 2016, 02:55 AM

May 2016

War is an ugly business. The Imperial Japanese Army were extremely ruthless, in their invasion and massacres of millions of civilians. When a country is involved in war, its objective is to limit their casualties, and do what is necessary to win that war.

Operation Downfall was the codename for the Allied plan for the invasion of the Japanese homeland. After the tremendous loses of U.S. troops in the battles of imo jima and okinawa, other alternatives were examined to end the war, and limit additional loses.

Operation Downfall was abandoned when Japan surrendered following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Soviet declaration of war.

Before the bombs were dropped there were two views among the leadership in Japan. One camp maintained that Japan must inflict tremendous damage on the Americans, in order to win better terms than President Roosevelt's unconditional surrender demands at the Yalta Conference in 1945.

The other camp believed that ending the war as soon as possible was the best way to achieve peace, and retain the emperor status.

There is no way to know which camp would have been dominant

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The Real Reason We Bombed Japan [View all] snot May 2016 OP

Nagasaki was a port city and manfactured Press Virginia May 2016 #1

.... 840high May 2016 #45

Both were also surrounded by hills thus containing the effects. Spitfire of ATJ May 2016 #60

I keep hearing "the Japanese were ready to surrender". Nye Bevan May 2016 #2

Why "nuc" civilian targets? rhett o rick May 2016 #14

Japan specifically targeted Chinese civilian populations in their carpet bombings of Chinese cities Feeling the Bern May 2016 #41

We bear more responsibility for our own government's conduct. n/t ronnie624 May 2016 #63

Yeah. . .Japan is innocent. We're wrong. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #65

Your comments are irrational. n/t ronnie624 May 2016 #68

And your comments are historically idiotic Feeling the Bern May 2016 #75

I don't blame America first... Bigmack May 2016 #87

My mother is Mohawk. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #90

Have you done any research on Unit 731? REP May 2016 #110

I have done extensive research into it in Harbin and Shenyang. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #124

Ghastly beyond words. REP May 2016 #128

..don't forget the medical experiments we made on humans... Bigmack May 2016 #135

Anything to deflect responsibility of Japan's actions and throw it back on the USA Feeling the Bern May 2016 #136

Not first... but are you saying ONLY Japan has blame for inhuman actions? nt Bigmack May 2016 #138

This post and the OP is about Japan and the Bomb. Not anything else Feeling the Bern May 2016 #139

Yes, sir. Anything you say, sir. Questions of perspective are OUT. OK..I get it. nt Bigmack Jun 2016 #143

So is your sarcasm. Ignored. Feeling the Bern Jun 2016 #144

That's using their brutality to justify our brutality blackspade May 2016 #69

The started a war, they got one. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #74

Your hatred blinds you. blackspade May 2016 #84

My hatred? You mean the 20 years of research in Japan and China I have done? Feeling the Bern May 2016 #85

Meaning what? blackspade May 2016 #88

Don't listen. He knows nothing about Japan. Bonobo May 2016 #95

Your blather about the Cultural Revolution is nothing more than a diversionary tactic... Marengo May 2016 #120

Actually, not true ChairmanAgnostic May 2016 #86

Japan started their march to conquest in 1898 when they attacked China Feeling the Bern May 2016 #89

Blockades And Sanctions Are Not Inherently Acts of War ProfessorGAC May 2016 #91

What part of "military HQ" and "military resupply port" MADem May 2016 #115

But they didn't, and they wouldn't. Hulk May 2016 #44

Well put. Thank you. 840high May 2016 #46

I am shocked and astounded by posts of this nature. Hulk May 2016 #53

You have to wonder what 840high May 2016 #57

The answer to that is pretty simple Hulk May 2016 #71

History is dust PJMcK May 2016 #107

Objecting to having a naval installation on an island territory of the USA MADem May 2016 #112

You are right! bearssoapbox May 2016 #77

"....and fought like rabid animals as long as they were alive. " pangaia May 2016 #127

"Rabid animals" is offensive...yes Hulk May 2016 #130

I think you just made my point. pangaia May 2016 #140

The Japanese invaded and conquered. Are you defending them? Feeling the Bern May 2016 #137

Am I defending the Japanese? No. pangaia May 2016 #141

I was just using the description that my grandfather and his brother used bearssoapbox Jun 2016 #142

Even after Nagasaki, hardliners wanted to continue the war by staging a coup against the Emperor: eppur_se_muova May 2016 #121

There was no need to nuke them anyway Art_from_Ark May 2016 #50

Nice read...shear speculation Hulk May 2016 #132

There was also the attitude in some of the Japanese military that... Kablooie May 2016 #61

Expect lots of angry responses from sleepwalkers... RufusTFirefly May 2016 #3

I guess you've never heard of the whole "forward deployed" concept, have you? MADem May 2016 #32

You need to study some history. Hulk May 2016 #48

My wife is a Chinese national from Zhenjiang Feeling the Bern May 2016 #54

We know. You brag about your credentials in every single post of yours. nt Bonobo May 2016 #96

Damn, that was cold! Dont call me Shirley May 2016 #114

No - but telling disgusting LIES doed dbackjon May 2016 #55

You mean the one on AMERICAN SOIL? dbackjon May 2016 #99

Whaaaaaaaa? SusanCalvin May 2016 #126

globalresearch melman May 2016 #4

To us, what is your objection to this Canadian research site? hedda_foil May 2016 #18

First of all melman May 2016 #34

You mean other than it's a crank magnet? Major Nikon May 2016 #49

It's a conspiracy nut site. Odin2005 May 2016 #82

What gave you that idea? hedda_foil May 2016 #98

Because they publish conspiracy shit. Odin2005 May 2016 #113

Here melman May 2016 #119

Ok. That's got me convinced. Thank you for the links. hedda_foil May 2016 #122

�Headline: North Korea, a Land of Human Achievement, Love and Joy"... EX500rider May 2016 #108

Google "the rape of Nanking" to see what we were dealing with. The Japanese would have Trust Buster May 2016 #5

Not to mention also their vivisection experiments of Chinese civilians and POW's. roamer65 May 2016 #7

Yes, in the Pacific islands the Japanese would capture foreign missionaries. In one instance Trust Buster May 2016 #9

non-combatant population?? virginia mountainman May 2016 #6

I agree. Ask the 100's of thousands of Chinese and Filipino's about "non-combatant populations". Trust Buster May 2016 #10

300,000 men, women and children in Nanjing. 20,000 women raped in Nanjing Feeling the Bern May 2016 #42

If you haven't already read it, the most comprehensive history of Japanese atrocities during Trust Buster May 2016 #51

Iris Chang's book is more up to date. 300,000 is the accepted amount. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #56

If you are writing a screenplay, I urge you to read "The Knights of Bushido". Go on Amazon Trust Buster May 2016 #59

Read it. Movie is already in preproduction. But most of my research was done in China since I live Feeling the Bern May 2016 #62

Sounds like very balanced research. nt Bonobo May 2016 #97

I'm assuming you saw City of Life & Death? Wondering what you thought of it. Marengo May 2016 #117

Typical Chinese movie with typical flaws Feeling the Bern May 2016 #125

I agree. You actually read the history unlike some others. Trust Buster May 2016 #11

More than once I heard that the idea was to make an example Hydra May 2016 #8

Read the history of the Japanese slaughter of POW's and civilians. Trust Buster May 2016 #12

Ya, they tortured people and killed civs Hydra May 2016 #13

Once again you show your ignorance of history. It was not just about what they had done, it was Trust Buster May 2016 #22

They were horrible, no one is arguing that. But why choose civilian targets? rhett o rick May 2016 #15

What about the tens of thousands of allied POW's and civilians in slave labor camps across Japan Trust Buster May 2016 #25

If you have something to say, do so. I don't play the answer your pointed questions game. rhett o rick May 2016 #27

I did say so. What do you think would have happened to the tens of thousands of POW's and Trust Buster May 2016 #29

What do *you* think would have happened to them? n/t ronnie624 May 2016 #67

They would have either starved to death, died of disease or executed before Allied forces could Trust Buster May 2016 #93

Again--they were MILITARY targets, and the civilians in the area WERE warned in advance. nt MADem May 2016 #116

Have you ever heard of the battle of Iwo Jima and Okinawa? Do you know how many people were killed still_one May 2016 #16

I notice that the conservatives here all can rationalize why we dropped nuclear bombs on rhett o rick May 2016 #17

After they bombed Pearl Harbor, they killed our civilians too yeoman6987 May 2016 #20

So what exactly is your point? I hope it isn't, "we did it because they did it." rhett o rick May 2016 #21

The point is our involvment in that war was initiated by that unprovoked attack. still_one May 2016 #73

Obviously we should have built a bomb that only targeted military resources Orrex May 2016 #102

They're just reflexively defending the system Hydra May 2016 #23

Their rationalization is the key to their happiness. rhett o rick May 2016 #24

Telling lies then is key to yours dbackjon May 2016 #58

I wonder if they would have felt the same way if they were one of the soldiers that would have been still_one May 2016 #64

They probably think that the Japanese would have given them flowers as liberators dbackjon May 2016 #100

Estimates were that the losses for invading the home islands would be 10-1 with one million American Feeling the Bern May 2016 #43

We knew that we had to convince the Emperior to surrender and not the military that rhett o rick May 2016 #19

No, we wanted to end the war quickly to save the tens of thousands of allied POW's and allied Trust Buster May 2016 #26

Does that make you feel better to think that? Rationalize away if you need to keep from facing rhett o rick May 2016 #28

Rationalization ? Saving the lives of tens of thousands of allied POW's and civilians imprisoned Trust Buster May 2016 #30

I had family members at sea steaming towards Japan, and MADem May 2016 #37

I had an uncle I never met who died on Okinawa. Those that like to hold a political "feel good" Trust Buster May 2016 #39

The idea that Truman was at all cavalier about the consequences of his decision is what MADem May 2016 #111

Rick, I hope you don't consider yourself a student of history! zappaman May 2016 #66

Top US military leaders "morally offended" by the unnecessary destruction? bhikkhu May 2016 #31

Japanese were peace loving folk and we slaughtered them? left-of-center2012 May 2016 #33

There will never be a definitive answer to this one. Rex May 2016 #35

War is hell. There are no civilised wars. aikoaiko May 2016 #36

I suspect it had no small element of sending a message to Stalin, as well. Warren DeMontague May 2016 #38

I read through the replies looking for the mention of Russia and Stalin. panader0 May 2016 #92

I've had the same thought. A message to Stalin, and to the world as well. Auggie May 2016 #101

Carpet bombing of Shanghai in 1933, Mukden Train incident of 1931 where they illegally seized Feeling the Bern May 2016 #40

I have no problem with the nuking that happened. It ended the war. When I hear this morally offended Waldorf May 2016 #47

Full of disproven falsehoods dbackjon May 2016 #52

Look at the legacy it left us redixdoragon May 2016 #70

I'll let someone's face and words also speak for me. redixdoragon May 2016 #72

And I'll let these images sink in and speak for me about the war Japan started Feeling the Bern May 2016 #76

What will we deserve? redixdoragon May 2016 #78

Hopefully, war crimes trials and executions/prison terms for the guilty parties. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #80

You believe that no bombs would have been dropped after WWII? Democat May 2016 #79

FFS zappaman May 2016 #81

The bombing saved American lives. GOLGO 13 May 2016 #83

The real reason was an unprovoked attack on US soil Omaha Steve May 2016 #94

the attack on Clark Field? MisterP May 2016 #118

Two reasons MillennialDem May 2016 #103

My parents may have been two of the lives saved by the bombing tularetom May 2016 #104

this comes up every year.... Javaman May 2016 #105

I am originally from Japan and here is my input. hertopos May 2016 #106

Yasukuni Shrine. Nuff said. Feeling the Bern May 2016 #131

This thread is amazing. Xolodno May 2016 #109

Very interesting TheFarseer May 2016 #123

Just to be clear, the military leaders did not have a problem.... WARNING, GRAPHIC Adrahil May 2016 #129

I just finished a book about the race to build the atomic bomb.The US definitely wanted to show the FourScore May 2016 #133

the ever-mounting number of "lives saved" was in fact a way for the S.A.C. to pad its budget MisterP May 2016 #134