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markpkessinger

(8,923 posts)

194. The sympathies he expressed as a 14-year-old . . .

Tue Jun 14, 2016, 04:24 PM

Jun 2016

. . . may or may not be those he held as an adult. But even if they were, merely having such sympathies, reprehensible though they may be, is not, per se, evidence of operational ties to terrorist organizations. And reprehensible sympathies are not against the law. And even if it were, how on Earth would we ever police individual consciences?

As 14-year-olds knowing what they are doing, that is seriously debatable. Research in nueropsychology suggest that a young man's capacity for judgment doesn't fully develop until the mid-20s. But whether or not they "know what they are doing," the adolescent/pubescent brain of a 14-year-old is hardly that of a 29-year-old. I know of no one (perhaps you are an exception) whose judgment, ethics, morality, etc. wasn't significantly different at age 29 from that of their 14-year-old selves.

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Can we just be honest about what was really going on with the Orlando shooter? [View all] markpkessinger Jun 2016 OP

Exactly. Like the workplace shooting in San Bernardino. But if you can conflate it with "terrorism," villager Jun 2016 #1

That one was most certainly terrorism metroins Jun 2016 #110

Except that he most certainly targeted *his workplace*. He was conflating his own act. villager Jun 2016 #145

I don't think so metroins Jun 2016 #215

Doesn't matter what you "think." He worked there, he came back angrily, he shot up the place. villager Jun 2016 #219

You're wrong metroins Jun 2016 #225

I'm sure you do defer to the authorities for most of your thinking. Nonetheless... villager Jun 2016 #245

Which of the Farooks spoke with ISIL directly? When and under what circumstances? mhatrw Jun 2016 #213

Google it metroins Jun 2016 #216

When someone says "google it" instead of providing a link, it's usually a bad sign. mhatrw Jun 2016 #227

The San Bernardino killers were gay, too??? PDittie Jun 2016 #138

That conflicts with what some want to see here jberryhill Jun 2016 #2

+10000000000000!!! 2naSalit Jun 2016 #153

or a large part of a group. MariaThinks Jun 2016 #190

Looking like oswaldactedalone Jun 2016 #3

Due Process metroins Jun 2016 #111

We lose voting rights every single year Boomer Jun 2016 #149

But dynamo99 Jun 2016 #178

The 5th Amendment takes a daily beating in this, a liberal web site. Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #232

Exactly philosslayer Jun 2016 #4

Homophobic terrorism is still terrorism I think eom rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #127

Sure it is . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #164

his religion believes that homosexuals should be killed. MariaThinks Jun 2016 #191

If only more than just a few could see and admit this. elleng Jun 2016 #5

+1 n/t markpkessinger Jun 2016 #47

I think his family had a lot to do with it passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #202

Yes, a combo with lots of 'blame' on family. elleng Jun 2016 #204

Remember all the homophobe congress people Protalker Jun 2016 #229

A closet case radicalized by an outdated, anti gay religion ram2008 Jun 2016 #6

Exactly. n/t markpkessinger Jun 2016 #10

yes, thank you Amishman Jun 2016 #91

anything but that!!! 6chars Jun 2016 #192

many visits to club MFM008 Jun 2016 #7

He'd rather die with people thinking he was a terrorist TexasBushwhacker Jun 2016 #33

+1 baldguy Jun 2016 #83

Pretty fucked up. Agschmid Jun 2016 #101

I believe you have hit the nail square on the head! annabanana Jun 2016 #113

I don't understand what you mean passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #203

This is quite possible. People want celebrity-through-terrorism/mass murder... Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #233

isn't it more likely he was a regular to check the place out for attack ? and went to Orlando JI7 Jun 2016 #8

Read up on the arson of the Upstairs Lounge in New Orleans . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #13

I was gonna post that Roy Rolling Jun 2016 #39

Rachel Maddow just covered the story and included events like New Orleans, appalachiablue Jun 2016 #42

James Byrd Jr. wasn't gay cannabis_flower Jun 2016 #146

+1 n/t ejbr Jun 2016 #209

Possible, but oswaldactedalone Jun 2016 #14

Once or twice would have been plenty to case the joint. HooptieWagon Jun 2016 #17

What would your head be like if you were raised in a family that gives you two choices - straight or jtuck004 Jun 2016 #41

I love that poem; it is so true. potone Jun 2016 #143

there are reports he went more than a dozen times drray23 Jun 2016 #186

He liked going to gay bars. He was on gay dating apps. mhatrw Jun 2016 #214

Yes, what good is a profile in "casing?" Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #234

Homophobia, taught by his father, justified by religion, enabled by the NRA. targetpractice Jun 2016 #9

NRA? HoustonDave Jun 2016 #135

enabled, not endorsed passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #208

Thanks... targetpractice Jun 2016 #228

"...reluctant to engage gun enthusiasts." Seems like you were first in line. Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #235

I don't follow... I don't see how the NRA enabled the Boston bombings. targetpractice Jun 2016 #242

You'll have to go back to archives, I guess. But the NRA was blamed in many, many posts. Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #259

It's often better not to engage. passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #248

Pink Pistols would like a word with you. Ikonoklast Jun 2016 #136

+1. Though ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #183

Thanks. n/t targetpractice Jun 2016 #226

As I pointed out earlier today, an angry, isolated man, who sought to shock his listeners . . . Journeyman Jun 2016 #11

I think there is a deep connection to terrorism with this situation Laha Jun 2016 #118

I Was Thinking the Same Thing-Without the ISIS Cover He Might Have Felt Death Would Reveal Shame Stallion Jun 2016 #12

Exactly, IMO. HooptieWagon Jun 2016 #18

Exactly. The ISIS cover was fake. He also pledged to Al Queda. Two opposite extremist groups. Midnight Writer Jun 2016 #28

+1 n/t markpkessinger Jun 2016 #34

And claimed to be Hezbollah too. bullsnarfle Jun 2016 #109

+1 harun Jun 2016 #117

yep . . . n/t annabanana Jun 2016 #115

This is what I think also. DawgHouse Jun 2016 #182

thank you for this post KT2000 Jun 2016 #15

'Evidence' elleng Jun 2016 #16

Tragically funny that classmate comments of him celebrating after 911 attacks are questioned MariaThinks Jun 2016 #60

Omar Mateen was 14 years old when 9/11 happened . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #188

How do you ignore someone revelling in the death of 3000 Americans? MariaThinks Jun 2016 #189

.."14 year olds know what they are doing." Seriously??? NoMoreRepugs Jun 2016 #193

Apparently his opinions didnt change as he grew older. 7962 Jun 2016 #211

The sympathies he expressed as a 14-year-old . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #194

I strongly suspect... MountainMama Jun 2016 #205

Don't forget the way he despised anything female Warpy Jun 2016 #19

Your post makes me wonder if he isn't a deluded jilted lover AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #20

even then it would usually result in attacking one or both of that couple JI7 Jun 2016 #22

Not necessarily. He feels stupid. Rejected. A wounded animal lashes out. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #27

With the information and insights coming forth it seems there was definitely appalachiablue Jun 2016 #51

He allegedly told his father he was offended by two guys kissing. HooptieWagon Jun 2016 #77

I think most of his motivation was self-hatred Doctor Jack Jun 2016 #21

On Hayes tonight he reported an academy mate claims of the shooter hitting on him after they'd gone uponit7771 Jun 2016 #23

Doesn't diminish the horror in the slightest . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #25

Not only aggandizes it, but also........ socialist_n_TN Jun 2016 #106

Exactly! n/t markpkessinger Jun 2016 #162

Yes, let's be honest. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #24

This doesn't get hetero-normative culture off the hook in the least . .. markpkessinger Jun 2016 #30

I agree, but you said "let's be honest," so let's be honest... Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #32

How does this feed into hetero privilige? thx in advance for any input uponit7771 Jun 2016 #37

Because, once again, they don't have to think about homophobia. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #46

like those insisting if it was about the guy being a self hating gay it had nothing to do with JI7 Jun 2016 #50

DING! DING! DING! Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #64

+10000 eom Arazi Jun 2016 #121

ok, thx... uponit7771 Jun 2016 #92

Your second paragraph is spot on. Hong Kong Cavalier Jun 2016 #48

"after all, who really gives a shit about gay people getting murdered?" FrodosPet Jun 2016 #49

Not IMO. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #69

People who have a murderous hatred don't need to be in a majority, and aren't. Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #236

That's not realistic Ash_F Jun 2016 #62

You can't possibly know that. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #68

There is this too Ash_F Jun 2016 #98

A lot of people on this board are not comfortable dealing with the subject of Islamist terrorism. David__77 Jun 2016 #63

As witnessed by many posts in this thread. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #66

I'm disgusted in that I swear I hear a collective sigh of relief. David__77 Jun 2016 #70

You heard it too? Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #71

"It certainly has nothing to do with concern for gay people." markpkessinger Jun 2016 #196

I dare observe what I observe and share my viewpoint. David__77 Jun 2016 #201

Thank you. (no text) Quantess Jun 2016 #84

Thanks for your posts. Puglover Jun 2016 #100

Yes melman Jun 2016 #76

I'm not comfortable using the verbiage the bigots use to describe anything, I'd like to stay far... uponit7771 Jun 2016 #96

^^^^This ^^^^ Arazi Jun 2016 #122

Completely agree. nt Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #134

As a gay man, I hardly see classifying it as a hate crime as "downgrading" it n/t markpkessinger Jun 2016 #157

I understand. David__77 Jun 2016 #173

But imagine of this guy had attended a RW christian church? 7962 Jun 2016 #210

A lot of Christians are far too comfortable demeaning Muslim bigotry. mhatrw Jun 2016 #218

That's possible. David__77 Jun 2016 #222

I knew it would not take long for this horseshit Puglover Jun 2016 #99

Yes, religions and bigots teach non gays to hate gays and this is tragic and criminal. mhatrw Jun 2016 #217

In YOUR opinoin. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #250

Sure, he was Muslim. But he was am American born Muslim who liked to get shitfaced in gay bars. mhatrw Jun 2016 #252

Reports from his wife. Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #253

It's what I thought all along. Cracklin Charlie Jun 2016 #26

I Think You Are Correct, Sir Night Watchman Jun 2016 #29

I thought that almost immediately after the news broke Lint Head Jun 2016 #31

Absolutely spot on, mark! He didn't like ISIS, he liked OSIRIS. Dont call me Shirley Jun 2016 #35

Islam is a scapegoat for the right mwrguy Jun 2016 #36

I refuse to call Orlando "terrorism" unless and until . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #38

There is a lot of green (as in profits for the MIC) in terror. PatrickforO Jun 2016 #40

the most relevant thing....he was a gun owner with a WMD nt msongs Jun 2016 #43

Indeed . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #44

Let's not forget that the victims were all regular people just enjoying their lives. GumboYaYa Jun 2016 #207

I thought this from the beginning LittleGirl Jun 2016 #45

Why do people think every homophobe has to be a closested homosexual themself? LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #52

Because his ex-wife said he had gay tendencies. He spent time on gay hook up apps. writes3000 Jun 2016 #54

I been looking this up and it seems pretty sketchy LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #74

Um . . . no large newspaper is publishing this? markpkessinger Jun 2016 #174

First off, that article says nothing about his wife or classmate calling him gay LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #195

He was at the same club he attacked a dozen+ times,... HooptieWagon Jun 2016 #78

Because a lot of people here melman Jun 2016 #56

Well because... Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #73

Its sad how often that happens. The most dubious sources become "iron clad" truth. LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #75

I agree! Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #80

Straight men don't usually ask other men out for a date noiretextatique Jun 2016 #82

Thanks for a reasoned, alternative point of view. King_Klonopin Jun 2016 #53

Religion can be used as a weapon. Isis preys on isolated outsiders. writes3000 Jun 2016 #55

True. But, I don't consider ISIS is to be a religion. They are a hate group. King_Klonopin Jun 2016 #59

Yes, I agree. ISIS itself isn't a religion. writes3000 Jun 2016 #185

Any philosophy that tells you to turn off your mind and accept it without question is bad Fumesucker Jun 2016 #88

Speaking of flawed logic... Dark n Stormy Knight Jun 2016 #155

why don't you be honest then, instead of the sanitized explanation. MariaThinks Jun 2016 #57

What on Earth is "sanitized" about it? markpkessinger Jun 2016 #238

This was a hate crime, but where did the hate come from? MariaThinks Jun 2016 #239

I never disputed that his religion (or rather, his particular strain of his religion) . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #241

One Doesn't Have To Be Gay To Understand DallasNE Jun 2016 #58

I'm gay and I understand that this was an adherent of Islamic State who committed an act of terror. David__77 Jun 2016 #61

You know....the deeply cynical part of me wonders if an FBI agent didn't uncover the fact that he msanthrope Jun 2016 #67

One was after he said he knew the Boston bombers and the FBI found no proof. I think the 2nd uppityperson Jun 2016 #79

Preaching in support of the death penalty for homosexuals is very American. Demit Jun 2016 #137

Yes. But still, I don't want any foreigners allowed to come here and add to the vicious bigotry. Dems to Win Jun 2016 #240

Yes, he was twice investigated for ties to terrorist organizations . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #170

As I said in a prior thread....he hated gays. He chose a religion to bolster that hate.... msanthrope Jun 2016 #65

He chose a religion? oberliner Jun 2016 #102

Religion is a choice. He was an adult, wasn't he? nt msanthrope Jun 2016 #107

He chose to stay in the religion he was raised in oberliner Jun 2016 #108

No....no one is born into a religion. It's like Republicanism....once you are an adult, it's a msanthrope Jun 2016 #130

Yes, of course people are born into a religion oberliner Jun 2016 #131

Children are not born Muslim or Catholic, or whatever. That is imposed on them. msanthrope Jun 2016 #152

Yes, they are oberliner Jun 2016 #158

No...children are not "born" any religion. That's just acceptance of what authoritarians msanthrope Jun 2016 #163

Yes, they are oberliner Jun 2016 #168

And changing your thinking about the religion you are raised Ilsa Jun 2016 #198

Exactly oberliner Jun 2016 #255

You may have conflated culture and religion. AtheistCrusader Jun 2016 #154

You didn't choose to be a Christian oberliner Jun 2016 #159

No, I was never a chrisitan. AtheistCrusader Jun 2016 #167

You did not believe in God even though your parents did and instructed you to do so as well? oberliner Jun 2016 #169

Correct. AtheistCrusader Jun 2016 #171

That is impressive oberliner Jun 2016 #181

You are completely wrong. Your statement is akin to saying that no one is born into a language.... xocet Jun 2016 #148

No...that's you accepting an authoritarian mindset that predetermines children. msanthrope Jun 2016 #151

I think you're saying the same thing actually. AtheistCrusader Jun 2016 #172

"...into a religion..." means something different to each of us then. I agree religion is... xocet Jun 2016 #176

I totally agree with you, mark ReRe Jun 2016 #72

Check out the "Bath School Killings" sometime. 1939 Jun 2016 #86

Thanks... I will look that up now. eom ReRe Jun 2016 #87

I totally agree...never bought the ISIS angle noiretextatique Jun 2016 #81

Well said oswaldactedalone Jun 2016 #89

Let's all jump to conclusions! GeorgeGist Jun 2016 #85

So we're dismissing the terrorist watch list and FBI check thing now? ileus Jun 2016 #90

Don't forget the two trips to Saudi Arabia forthemiddle Jun 2016 #197

I think it's an example of how religion can screw people up... MellowDem Jun 2016 #93

the shooter fits the classic case of the "closeted gay"....who in a last fit of a breakdown to prove beachbum bob Jun 2016 #94

Totally agree. DCBob Jun 2016 #95

Plus he had tendencies to be violent and you get this result. Thinkingabout Jun 2016 #105

Yes agree. DCBob Jun 2016 #125

It is sad how many supposed "liberals" have bought the RW "Clash of Civilizations" BS. Odin2005 Jun 2016 #97

If this weren't suggested every single time there's a hate crime against gay people gollygee Jun 2016 #103

I agree people are often too quick to attribute every act of anti-gay violence . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #179

He didn't have to be tied to a terrorist group to do it for religious reasons Nt gollygee Jun 2016 #180

I never said religion wasn't a factor . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #199

I never said it was unique to Islam gollygee Jun 2016 #206

I agree with you. hertopos Jun 2016 #104

tormented ellennelle Jun 2016 #112

People can have more than one motivation. yellowcanine Jun 2016 #114

Makes the most sense to me but the media get's more ratings with the other narratives. harun Jun 2016 #116

I think it is indeed a complex case. alarimer Jun 2016 #119

He could have had MORE THAN ONE motive. n/t Herman4747 Jun 2016 #120

People are scrambling to find a reason for Politicub Jun 2016 #123

Here's an MSN article that has more detail on motivations and.... socialist_n_TN Jun 2016 #124

K&R.. disillusioned73 Jun 2016 #126

My suspicion exactly Mira Jun 2016 #128

Palm Beach Post is confirming your theory he was closeted gay, asked classmate out in hs. catbyte Jun 2016 #129

Seems to declare ISIS gives a kind of permission to kill and hides the real reason. Kablooie Jun 2016 #132

The "fear factor" in tying it to "jihad" is just what the doctor ordered for an NorthCarolina Jun 2016 #133

+1 FailureToCommunicate Jun 2016 #139

Could not agree more vlyons Jun 2016 #140

I'm not gay, but reached the same conclusion. He was sinkingfeeling Jun 2016 #141

+1000 heaven05 Jun 2016 #142

If your father's view is that you shouldn't kill gays because god will do it for you... brooklynite Jun 2016 #144

Seems reasonable to consider the idea that the shooter was filled with self-loathing ... Scuba Jun 2016 #147

Possible, but let's wait and see. Android3.14 Jun 2016 #150

You're getting shit from the usual suspects, but I agree with you. closeupready Jun 2016 #156

Or a toxic clash of both? progressoid Jun 2016 #160

I think that a major personality disorder was part of the equation milestogo Jun 2016 #161

"A Well-Regulated Militia..." does NOT = ... modestybl Jun 2016 #165

155+ Recs as I write this.. We know it.. we know it.. phazed0 Jun 2016 #166

Whats another example of this scenario? ErikJ Jun 2016 #175

The arson of the Upstairs Lounge in New Orleans in 1973 markpkessinger Jun 2016 #187

Islam is what made him feel that way though. nm mr_liberal Jun 2016 #177

Perhaps ... markpkessinger Jun 2016 #184

Unlike Christianity, which would have taught him love instead. mhatrw Jun 2016 #220

The Tao: "If you want to shrink something, you must allow it to expand" Miles Archer Jun 2016 #200

The whole 911 call pledge to ISIS smells like bullshit to me. mhatrw Jun 2016 #212

The point wasn't to convince the 911 operator Ruby the Liberal Jun 2016 #221

Do we even know whether he was Sunni or Shiite? mhatrw Jun 2016 #223

We'll never know Ruby the Liberal Jun 2016 #224

We'll never know only because actual journalism is long dead in our society. mhatrw Jun 2016 #231

The great majority of Afghans are Sunni . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #237

Do we even know if he was Muslim? L. Coyote Jun 2016 #244

You may be right �bout this. Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #230

Why isn't everyone talking about this aspect: L. Coyote Jun 2016 #243

Had he been to the club more than once PRIOR to seeing the men kissing? rocktivity Jun 2016 #246

I'm concerned about Mateen's widow living with his father... targetpractice Jun 2016 #247

DING DING DING! Rocktivity, you're our grand prize winner! rocktivity Jun 2016 #249

uh oh melman Jun 2016 #251

A law enforcement official who dare not speak his name? rocktivity Jun 2016 #254

lol melman Jun 2016 #256

He may very well be lying rocktivity Jun 2016 #258

Whether or not he said this to his wife ... markpkessinger Jun 2016 #257

so are you suggesting that there is no threat from ISIS? RussBLib Jun 2016 #260

Hello? Where did I ever say anything like that? markpkessinger Jun 2016 #262

Agreed... He made a big display of his homophobia in recent months... targetpractice Jun 2016 #261

To answer your originally posted question, rocktivity Jun 2016 #263