General Discussion

Denzil_DC

(9,222 posts)

84. Pretty much 99% of the UK DUers

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 12:57 PM

Jun 2016

will tell you what I have. They've been wearing out their fingers posting facts in the face of arrogant dismissal like yours for days now.

But we're all wrong, huh, and you'd rather believe the "facts" this author has come up with because he agrees with whatever your agenda is, then tomorrow you'll be all het up about something else and be posting about that, while we have to continue living through, observing, all this?

We must be pretty thick collectively to have got it all so wrong when if we just read your article, we'll be put right.

I'm really not bothered whether you dismiss us all, but it is tiresome.

As for this Enrico Tortelona's "facts", he was on the Leave side from the get-go, and one of his major outlets is Morning Star. If you don't know why that's significant, you don't know much about the UK.

Here's Tortelano in debate with Frances Grady about these issues: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/06/should-uk-brexit-trade-union-views

Frances Grady is General Secretary of the TUC, she was a major spoke for Remain, but she obviously knows less than Tortolano and you about the whole thing.

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Please, please stop spreading the lie that Brexit was to fight against neoliberalism [View all] DetlefK Jun 2016 OP

Add to that: Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #1

+ 10000000 TubbersUK Jun 2016 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #2

Amen n/t TubbersUK Jun 2016 #5

The vote was a whole lot less about "bigoted nostalgia" than about pensions, or the loss of them. leveymg Jun 2016 #8

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #9

They care a whole lot less about them than those who are facing poverty in old age. leveymg Jun 2016 #13

Thank you....n/t whathehell Jun 2016 #27

Your comments are always much appreciated. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #31

Pensions? I didn't hear pensions mentioned once in the campaign muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #19

Nice try - Scotland? Northern Ireland? any answer yet? pkdu Jun 2016 #30

I already answered that. Like Ireland, Scotland and N Ire gain from EU and global investment leveymg Jun 2016 #86

Thats a bullshit answer , Scotland and N.I. have been impacted just as much if not more so pkdu Jun 2016 #90

Take a look at these maps of UK income distribution and the Brexit vote leveymg Jun 2016 #92

Take a look at the color of NI in your own graphic! FAIL (again) pkdu Jun 2016 #93

The general pattern seems to line up otherwise. Agree? leveymg Jun 2016 #95

Nope...you are just plain wrong...look at all the expression of voters exiting below...especially pkdu Jun 2016 #116

See #111. The close split on capitalism most closely reflects the outcome of the referendum. leveymg Jun 2016 #117

No, the close split on capitalism means that capitalism has nothing to do with the referendum muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #124

Last name order is purely random. But, opinion on capitalism is relevant to one's Brexit vote leveymg Jun 2016 #125

Downloaded the detailed data. Some interesting findings: Retired and unemployed were mostly Leavers leveymg Jun 2016 #127

Detailed data at Table 33 says you're wrong, Muriel. Poorer areas-Leave, poorer respondents-Leave. leveymg Jun 2016 #128

Those figures you've quoted aren't about Remain or Leave, though muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #129

That merely obscures the data: Leave correlates strongly with class, employment, age, leveymg Jun 2016 #135

It correlates much more strongly with views against immigration and multiculturalism muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #136

The data does not show that older Britains are "quite happy with capitalism" Only 39% say leveymg Jun 2016 #137

No, 39% is the overall capitalism 'good' figure; for 65+, it's 47% muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #138

So, you didn't find anything that provides a ranking of these issues by importance? leveymg Jun 2016 #140

No, nothing ranking those issues muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #141

Seems to be a strange omission. I'll look later. Thanks. leveymg Jun 2016 #142

An ORB poll showed 52/37 considered the UK economy a bigger issue than immigration leveymg Jun 2016 #143

That's the figures for everyone; Leave were 31% economy more important, 57% disagreeing muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #144

The winners will create a "neoliberal fantasy island freed from EU regulations". Pensions are going pampango Jun 2016 #33

+1, /nt Marr Jun 2016 #57

Pensions?! That's an invented angle. And it's not Ageism to show the very clear divide in the vote Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #59

"Bigoted nostalgia", didn't see that, a new one and a variant of, appalachiablue Jun 2016 #91

There seem to be a lot of apologists for neoliberalism on DU, of late. leveymg Jun 2016 #94

Long Live Neoliberalism! The lengths gone to here to demolish appalachiablue Jun 2016 #98

Just because LWolf Jun 2016 #3

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #10

And what evidence lead you to these conclusions??? DetlefK Jun 2016 #23

I didn't say LWolf Jun 2016 #28

+5 appalachiablue Jun 2016 #32

But where is the connection? DetlefK Jun 2016 #42

There is an abundance of connections LWolf Jun 2016 #66

Let's see: DetlefK Jun 2016 #112

I think the misunderstanding is over the basic ambiguity of neoliberalism seabeckind Jun 2016 #114

Yes. LWolf Jun 2016 #120

+1 nt laundry_queen Jun 2016 #134

"Neoliberalism is at the core of Brexit". No, pure bred conservativism is at the core of Brexit. pampango Jun 2016 #37

No. LWolf Jun 2016 #62

Baloney. FDR was neither neoliberal nor conservative. Sweden is not neoliberal nor conservative now. pampango Jun 2016 #73

wtf LWolf Jun 2016 #79

FDR viewed conservatives as the enemy. He welcomed their hatred. pampango Jun 2016 #88

Neoliberalism LWolf Jun 2016 #96

FDR talked a lot about conservatism because it was an issue of his era. It still is, IMHO. pampango Jun 2016 #99

Neoliberalism is a socioeconomic CONSERVATIVE LIBERTARIANISM. Hortensis Jun 2016 #68

Thanks for the definition. That does not prove anything with respect to Brexit. Polling date shows pampango Jun 2016 #76

Most people have no idea what neoliberalism is, Hortensis Jun 2016 #100

Except TubbersUK Jun 2016 #63

Trump is led on the right. LWolf Jun 2016 #69

But Conservative voters are predominantly MIDDLE class TubbersUK Jun 2016 #89

I would start by LWolf Jun 2016 #97

Sure, there are some, but they're Conservative voters nonetheless TubbersUK Jun 2016 #115

Plenty of conservatives are anti-establishment. LWolf Jun 2016 #121

"The anti-government, anti-intellectual bent is conservative. " TubbersUK Jun 2016 #122

The City of London is neoliberal with a gusto. The rest of England a lot less so, obviously. leveymg Jun 2016 #4

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #7

Scotland's economy is more tied to Europe than the English Midlands and South. And Separatism. leveymg Jun 2016 #11

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #12

Scotland is simple to expain. They were sitting in the catbird's seat. AntiBank Jun 2016 #14

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jun 2016 #16

Scotland, Wales, and NI subsidise their students AntiBank Jun 2016 #21

As progressive countries will do. They voted to Remain. Smart move on their part. pampango Jun 2016 #40

the link works and it has no political bias AntiBank Jun 2016 #45

I agree that Scotland and Sanders are both progressive on lowering college fees. Both were Remain pampango Jun 2016 #52

here is newer article about the fees AntiBank Jun 2016 #65

Scot here. Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #18

thanks for the detailed reply, you echo many of my Scottish mates AntiBank Jun 2016 #22

I'm not really anything 100%! Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #35

Spot on TubbersUK Jun 2016 #26

Thanks for the input, interesting. Like the way you described civic nationalism. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #41

That outlook on nationalism/separatism is our ideal. Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #46

Understood, there's always some rotters around appalachiablue Jun 2016 #85

Thank you for the inside skinny. And, thanks for the Scotch, too! leveymg Jun 2016 #107

You have provided the answer. Looks like no one is listening. yourpaljoey Jun 2016 #39

An odd little cheering section for the City of London has popped up here. leveymg Jun 2016 #108

Well, you tried yourpaljoey Jun 2016 #110

The City of London is different to Greater London! Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #130

I used to work on the Floor of the NYSE. The City of London is Wall St East leveymg Jun 2016 #131

It wasn't clear from any of your posts what you know about the place, Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #132

London voted heavily to stay n/t n2doc Jun 2016 #15

London has plenty serious pockets of deprivation. Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #49

So open borders neoliberalism is better then closed borders neoliberalism runaway hero Jun 2016 #17

I am arguing that Brexit had nothing to do with being for or against neoliberalism. DetlefK Jun 2016 #24

Progressive like with strong labor and environmental standards, world class income equality, pampango Jun 2016 #44

They why did those same people just leave runaway hero Jun 2016 #101

Why did some Labour voters vote to Leave? For the same reasons that many, many Conservative pampango Jun 2016 #103

But the many didn't show up runaway hero Jun 2016 #104

"Young people didn't show when it mattered yet again." And old people did and got their way. pampango Jun 2016 #105

No problem runaway hero Jun 2016 #106

It's almost as absurd as saying they are racists because they didn't want open borders. modem77 Jun 2016 #20

Neoliberals are loving Brexit since it let's them force the UK... joshcryer Jun 2016 #25

17.4 million ignorant racists voted leave Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 #29

Maybe you aren't a person of color / Polish accent / headscarf who has spent time in Britain lately. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #70

If you're South Asian it's pretty bad Recursion Jun 2016 #119

I believe you. Sorry to hear that. Nm Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 #126

This chart completely demolishes that meme about Brexit being a rejection of neoliberalism YoungDemCA Jun 2016 #34

If you really, really want it to be about rejecting neoliberalism, polling data does not matter. pampango Jun 2016 #50

Interesting how the divide on capitalism most closely reflects the actual vote. leveymg Jun 2016 #111

Let us note that with a few exceptions the Brexit leaders were RIGHT wing LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #36

Boris is Bananas, even manic, albeit entertaining at times. Can't believe he'd be PM. appalachiablue Jun 2016 #43

Tony Blair, Bush's poodle, was on the other side J_J_ Jun 2016 #74

Yes, and a start would be not listening to the right-wing media LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #82

and Donald Trump and Sarah Palin were all for the exit still_one Jun 2016 #83

My thread regarding such did not claim that the vote was logical. appal_jack Jun 2016 #38

Did you mean the word embarrassing? Rex Jun 2016 #47

It's crossed the line from "embarrassing" to "shameful", honestly Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #48

Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #55

Oh No!!! A typo derailed my whole argument!!! Foiled again!!! DetlefK Jun 2016 #54

Good luck preaching to the antineoliberalchorus who are mostly just parrots. Stinky The Clown Jun 2016 #51

Is this NeoliberalismUnderground.com now? fbc Jun 2016 #53

I cannot be since it already is leftistconspiracytheories.com DetlefK Jun 2016 #58

It has to be. LWolf Jun 2016 #72

Profit = neoliberal?? Gosh. (It's not simplistic like that.) . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #56

profits while keeping down workers = neoliberalism. Exilednight Jun 2016 #77

None of your rant against neoliberalism (as you define it) has anything to do with UK, EU or Brexit. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #87

In other words "you asked a question that I can't answer so I'm going to Exilednight Jun 2016 #102

It's OK. You could have tied your def'n to UK, used UK/EU examples, but we don't need to go further. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #109

And we have your word for that? fasttense Jun 2016 #60

Bob Crow would also be bitterly opposed Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #71

Your correct, I don't need his words the rest of the article proves the point. fasttense Jun 2016 #75

LIVING HERE! That's where my proof is. Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #78

The writer of the article also lives there. fasttense Jun 2016 #81

Pretty much 99% of the UK DUers Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #84

David Harvey uses the term neoliberalism to describe Lewis Powell's 1971 confidential memorandum to jtuck004 Jun 2016 #61

It is not quite as simple as that Dustbowl Observer Jun 2016 #64

Anyone claiming that BREXIT was driven by one thing is disingenuous Saviolo Jun 2016 #67

I don't believe layering over one neoliberal prone government with another is not fasttense Jun 2016 #80

Gutter-Populism ultimately degenerates into paranoid conspiracy theories about the "Powers That Be". Odin2005 Jun 2016 #113

If it was a rejection of neoliberalism, conservative voters are sure smarter than liberal voters pampango Jun 2016 #118

Yes TubbersUK Jun 2016 #123

Real estate fun and games might've played a role. proverbialwisdom Jun 2016 #133

+1000 Blue_Tires Jun 2016 #139