"Conservatives" are traitors.

[Cary]

185. Americans in 1859...

Interesting you should bring that up. As I said, I have more faith in our traditions than you have, and perhaps a better grasp of history.

The Founding Fathers punted on a lot of issues of the day including slavery and federalism. They were, after all, a contentious lot. They decided that they couldn't solve the slavery issue so they basically kicked that can down the road and all kinds of things went on before the issue came to a head.

And as for federalism, it was clear that the Articles of Confederation didn't work but the degree to which the federal government had authority was one of those issues that the Founders bickered over. The solution was to make the Constitution vague and ambiguous and to give it an elastic clause.

Our "strict constructionists" don't like that idea, but they're fringe lunatics.

So arguably we really weren't the nation that we are today until 1865, when these things were decided at a horrific cost. But make no mistake here--these issues were decided.

Can that be ripped apart? Of course, anything is possible but I don't think either that this consensus is as fragile as seem to be making it out to be.

Of course you and some others here don't want to allow me to have my own definition with respect to my own comments so...