General Discussion

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)

82. Turning it into "Fuck You, Pay Me" America isn't the answer either.

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 10:54 AM

Jun 2016

Look, I get that journalists far and wide buy into the red-bait absolutist theme of "LUUK HOW FREEKN TERRBLE TIS UNDR TH COMMIES!!!!!11!!" and the only cure for that hellscape is what we have here: naively trusting the corporations to do all the things you don't want "TEH EEEEEVUL REPRESSIVE GUMBINT" to do.

Well, here's a big fat "duurrrrrrrrrrrrrr": where has it ever been espoused by anyone with a brain stem that things were a utopia under pure Socialism or pure Capitalism? Certainly not me.

Difference is, there are more than a few dozen million that think near-pure Capitalism IS a utopia. Sorry, those sad fuckers are JUST as brain-damaged.

Not everything has to be about making a buck, especially when it comes to human rights and necessities. In America, we seem to think that declaring war on the economic interests of it's citizens is akin to a strong, take-no-shit nation. It's upside-down; by gutting the social safety net and commoditizing education and health care, we're actually a weaker country.

False dilemmas are a road to ruin. I only hope corporate interests aren't the sole orchestrators of Cuba's rebound once the Castros die. I only hope they look to other nations in their transition to a hopefully evolved country . . . the opposite of what America's become.

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Please Stop Saying You Want to Go to Cuba Before It’s Ruined [View all] Nye Bevan Jun 2016 OP

Everything beautiful and authentic will be destroyed if market values comes in. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #1

There are McDonalds in Paris and Venice. Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #2

If the values switch from collective solidarity to nothing but individual self-interest Ken Burch Jun 2016 #5

reads like a dogma or a manifesto uhnope Jun 2016 #54

You should read more. There is a whole economic spectrum between capitalism and communism. DetlefK Jun 2016 #66

I'm aware of that, but the international financial community Ken Burch Jun 2016 #107

"The international financial community" DetlefK Jun 2016 #116

"Poland and Hungary will be nothing but right-wing and anti-democratic for the rest of eternity" AntiBank Jun 2016 #91

I salute all anti-fascist Poles and Hungarians... Ken Burch Jun 2016 #98

I agree on the EU forced austerity. Same thing in Greece with Golden Dawn. AntiBank Jun 2016 #99

Absolutely. n/t. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #100

Is this a serious post? I honestly can't tell. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2016 #3

If Cuba goes full-on capitalist, no humane social values can be preserved there. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #6

Prostitution, starvation and hospitals covered in human waste are humane social values? Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2016 #75

WTF?????????????????? malaise Jun 2016 #77

I have no idea what it is you presume to be incredulous over. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2016 #80

This thread is completely off the rails. Aerows Jun 2016 #114

And then some malaise Jun 2016 #122

It's just Aerows Jun 2016 #123

Sometimes ignorance is bliss malaise Jun 2016 #125

You're taking the word of a right-wing exile on that. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #101

Cuba health care is superior to the USA in most ways... Human101948 Jun 2016 #106

"And a market values Cuba would never be a place where ... anarchism would be allowed to spread." mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2016 #87

That was in response to Nuclear Unicorn, whose avatar is the anarchist symbol. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #102

bye SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #25

That is quite an extensive list. RME_SFC Jun 2016 #92

Corrupt crony neoliberal (& imperialist) laissez-faire capitalism Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #119

If only the Cuban people had one person to make decisions for them Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #4

I'm not defending any of the repression. Just the humane social values. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #8

We certainly can't have capitalism wrecking their prosperity Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #10

Capitalism will only make a tiny minority of Cubans more prosperous Ken Burch Jun 2016 #12

Oh, yeah. This is really a LGBTQ issue. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #16

It was a reference to your avatar. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #19

"It's enough for Cuba to get Democracy" Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #22

Why? With democracy they can still have humane social values. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #51

gross oversimplification at best uhnope Jun 2016 #63

The root cause of all of it was the massive austerity imposed on those countries Ken Burch Jun 2016 #109

honestly that's silly uhnope Jun 2016 #118

So your saying an influx of money into the country in the form of resorts, golf courses, restaurant, frankieallen Jun 2016 #103

Those things exist here, and they do nothing to stop people having to sleep rough. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #104

so they will hire only rich people to construct the buildings, clean rooms, server food, cook, frankieallen Jun 2016 #108

You should say "those whom the system prevents from working" not "those who do not work" Ken Burch Jun 2016 #110

what does that even mean? frankieallen Jun 2016 #130

I've got an old-school flip phone. n/t. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #133

fine, you have a flip phone. You are in solidarity with your Cuban bros and sisters frankieallen Jun 2016 #134

Cubans do not starve or live in the streets in Cubs. Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #120

so much ignorance thanks to our wonderful MSM narratives newthinking Jun 2016 #128

Well. consider that you are also expressing your opinion of how you think they should progress newthinking Jun 2016 #15

You're right: advocating for them to make their own decisions, is, in a way.. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #18

I don't have a $600 iPhone. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #33

"supporting democracy does mean wanting them to make their own decisions" Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #36

The desire for things like that is always created from without. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #55

prosperity - lol SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #26

Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #27

what do you do to help the earth? SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #31

Sit glumly and wait for my moral betters to pass judgment on me on the internet. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #32

done SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #34

whatever that means nt Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #35

I am not sure... RME_SFC Jun 2016 #95

Hahahahaha. mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2016 #84

blaming the political situation in Poland and Hungary on capitalism or on the market uhnope Jun 2016 #62

I have been to Cuba twice Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2016 #97

I disagree, I think much will be preserved Warpy Jun 2016 #7

I agree with you about the iron fist part. n/t. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #14

There is a GORGEOUS McDonald's right next to the Spanish Steps in Rome--to the right as you go up. MADem Jun 2016 #9

2nd picture, bottom left, is that 5 (at least) different kinds of salad to choose from? Electric Monk Jun 2016 #21

They have a self-serve option and lots of things that aren't on US menus. MADem Jun 2016 #59

This is your parody of yourself, right? Recursion Jun 2016 #28

It's not warped to believe a capitalist restoration in Cuba can't be anything but a tragedy. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #42

Well, fortunately you'll see how wrong you are in the next few years Recursion Jun 2016 #43

Nothing good for the people can come from greed. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #45

Nonsense Recursion Jun 2016 #48

the US is far better off than Cuba. they risk their lives to come here. you don't see that happening JI7 Jun 2016 #52

It's better in material terms. That isn't all that matters in life. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #53

how come you can't point to specific examples ? you are too hung up on trying to prove how liberal JI7 Jun 2016 #58

Democracy will bring in a market economy. The only thing stopping a market DanTex Jun 2016 #73

"Yes, people might have more things...but that isn't anything." lunamagica Jun 2016 #79

You're assuming we can even trust what the author at the link is saying. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #113

It should be up to them how they want to live. They don't exist for fulfill the fantasies of lunamagica Jun 2016 #126

"You can't have poetry and cultural truth AND McDonald's." sufrommich Jun 2016 #86

What's "authentic" about Soviet-style command economies? Adrahil Jun 2016 #137

that is one stupid cuban SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #11

Yep. In five words you have provided a comprehensive, erudite, and devastating rebuttal Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #17

only stupid people do not understand what is going to be lost soon SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #20

"it is sad that so many know so little" Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #23

lol SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #24

I have some questions about the facts the writer alleges in the opening Ash_F Jun 2016 #13

This is really the first you've heard about the poverty and dysfunction in Cuba? Recursion Jun 2016 #30

Cuba has problems. The reintroduction of massive corporations can't solve them. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #39

OK, tell India to turn back the clock and erase their middle class Recursion Jun 2016 #41

What about the millions forcibly driven from their homes so useless megadams could be built? Ken Burch Jun 2016 #47

Look, you're being absurd at this point Recursion Jun 2016 #50

It may be irreversible, but it never had to be done the way it was done. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #57

How much environmental devastation 1939 Jun 2016 #70

I never saw the Soviet Union as paradise, or socialist. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #105

Under socialsim, the government owns the means of production 1939 Jun 2016 #117

Actually, that's just one form of socialism Ken Burch Jun 2016 #121

Where each set of workers owns their own business 1939 Jun 2016 #135

That should be "the problem SOME socialists have". There is no unified "line" on that. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #139

"At this point"? B2G Jun 2016 #74

Yeah fair enough (nt) Recursion Jun 2016 #81

Those awful megadams. RandySF Jun 2016 #78

Read Arundhati Roy sometime. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #88

This is the first time I have heard a bottle of shampoo is 15% a doctor's monthly income Ash_F Jun 2016 #67

Fair question. Recursion Jun 2016 #68

Don't know much about it, outside of what people who have been there have written. Ash_F Jun 2016 #71

Good points. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #111

I posted down thread about my recent visit. Personal toiletries are in short supply and expensive. Coventina Jun 2016 #138

Is a bottle of shampoo $3 usd and a doctor's monthly salary $20? Ash_F Jun 2016 #140

Thank you for posting, this article is very much appreciated. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #29

Great article, and very similar to what most Cubans eissa Jun 2016 #37

The time warp image is largely imposed Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #124

Thank you, great post. My daughter and son-in-law visited and they loved the place. akbacchus_BC Jun 2016 #38

All the new buildings will be soulless skyscrapers. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #40

Am confused! Do you mean if America were to engage Cuba again, everything akbacchus_BC Jun 2016 #44

Engage, no. Insist on a market-driven economy, yes. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #46

I disagree that Cuba will lose its values to America's engagement. They been there and know akbacchus_BC Jun 2016 #49

To clarify, I'm not against the US engaging with Cuba. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #64

The only reason the quaint, falling apart buildings are there now 1939 Jun 2016 #72

Thanks....I won't say it again Hulk Jun 2016 #56

or paris or rome ? JI7 Jun 2016 #61

To me, this reads like ... nikto Jun 2016 #60

While I will never say something BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #65

Of course there's always someone somewhere telling us what to say and not say. LanternWaste Jun 2016 #69

I know, those uppity ethnic groups saying "please don't say this" and "please don't say that", Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #83

Let's keep in mind that Cuba is so 'authentic' in largely because of the embargo RandySF Jun 2016 #76

Thank you for making the case for lifting the embargo. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #115

It should been lifted at least 40 years ago. RandySF Jun 2016 #131

Turning it into "Fuck You, Pay Me" America isn't the answer either. HughBeaumont Jun 2016 #82

"see it before it's ruined" is the ultimate display of privilege. sufrommich Jun 2016 #85

Kim and Kanye have been there. So, it's already ruined like here. n/t Yavin4 Jun 2016 #89

Having just returned from Cuba, I have a quasi-rebuttle. Coventina Jun 2016 #90

Thank you. Were you on an organised tour? Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #127

Yes. Although we were given lots of free time to go and do whatever we wished. Coventina Jun 2016 #129

ITT: Cuban emigre wankers and tankies argue while everyone else shakes their head forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #93

I just want to see it as it is right now. MohRokTah Jun 2016 #94

Cuba is Eurotrash Central Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2016 #96

What the Hell did I just read? Aerows Jun 2016 #112

I have heard these things from many Cubans I've known, liberalhistorian Jun 2016 #132

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2016 #136