General Discussion

uhnope

(6,419 posts)

118. honestly that's silly

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 05:48 PM

Jun 2016

Did East Germany become fascist? No.
Did all those countries become fascist? No
Please link to info about whatever you mean by "every party was forced to agree."
Those countries were generally economic basket cases at the end of the Soviet kleptocratic disaster. Of course some drastic changes had to happen. But they all generally retained much of the socialist aspects of their economies--national healthcare, strong pensions, pretty strong employee rights (compared to the US especially).
Most of them are much better off economically than they were before. So it's not a post-Weimar situation at all.

You are looking for a reason that Poland and Hungary have RW govs and Hungary, especially, is arguably now not a Democracy. Good for you to be looking. But I don't think the market economy is that reason. It's much more complicated than that and there's a good case to be made that the market economy has nothing at all to do with the turn towards anti-democracy in some of those countries.

I'm not a big fan of so-called free market capitalism at all, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

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Please Stop Saying You Want to Go to Cuba Before It�s Ruined [View all] Nye Bevan Jun 2016 OP

Everything beautiful and authentic will be destroyed if market values comes in. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #1

There are McDonalds in Paris and Venice. Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #2

If the values switch from collective solidarity to nothing but individual self-interest Ken Burch Jun 2016 #5

reads like a dogma or a manifesto uhnope Jun 2016 #54

You should read more. There is a whole economic spectrum between capitalism and communism. DetlefK Jun 2016 #66

I'm aware of that, but the international financial community Ken Burch Jun 2016 #107

"The international financial community" DetlefK Jun 2016 #116

"Poland and Hungary will be nothing but right-wing and anti-democratic for the rest of eternity" AntiBank Jun 2016 #91

I salute all anti-fascist Poles and Hungarians... Ken Burch Jun 2016 #98

I agree on the EU forced austerity. Same thing in Greece with Golden Dawn. AntiBank Jun 2016 #99

Absolutely. n/t. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #100

Is this a serious post? I honestly can't tell. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2016 #3

If Cuba goes full-on capitalist, no humane social values can be preserved there. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #6

Prostitution, starvation and hospitals covered in human waste are humane social values? Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2016 #75

WTF?????????????????? malaise Jun 2016 #77

I have no idea what it is you presume to be incredulous over. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2016 #80

This thread is completely off the rails. Aerows Jun 2016 #114

And then some malaise Jun 2016 #122

It's just Aerows Jun 2016 #123

Sometimes ignorance is bliss malaise Jun 2016 #125

You're taking the word of a right-wing exile on that. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #101

Cuba health care is superior to the USA in most ways... Human101948 Jun 2016 #106

"And a market values Cuba would never be a place where ... anarchism would be allowed to spread." mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2016 #87

That was in response to Nuclear Unicorn, whose avatar is the anarchist symbol. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #102

bye SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #25

That is quite an extensive list. RME_SFC Jun 2016 #92

Corrupt crony neoliberal (& imperialist) laissez-faire capitalism Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #119

If only the Cuban people had one person to make decisions for them Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #4

I'm not defending any of the repression. Just the humane social values. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #8

We certainly can't have capitalism wrecking their prosperity Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #10

Capitalism will only make a tiny minority of Cubans more prosperous Ken Burch Jun 2016 #12

Oh, yeah. This is really a LGBTQ issue. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #16

It was a reference to your avatar. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #19

"It's enough for Cuba to get Democracy" Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #22

Why? With democracy they can still have humane social values. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #51

gross oversimplification at best uhnope Jun 2016 #63

The root cause of all of it was the massive austerity imposed on those countries Ken Burch Jun 2016 #109

honestly that's silly uhnope Jun 2016 #118

So your saying an influx of money into the country in the form of resorts, golf courses, restaurant, frankieallen Jun 2016 #103

Those things exist here, and they do nothing to stop people having to sleep rough. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #104

so they will hire only rich people to construct the buildings, clean rooms, server food, cook, frankieallen Jun 2016 #108

You should say "those whom the system prevents from working" not "those who do not work" Ken Burch Jun 2016 #110

what does that even mean? frankieallen Jun 2016 #130

I've got an old-school flip phone. n/t. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #133

fine, you have a flip phone. You are in solidarity with your Cuban bros and sisters frankieallen Jun 2016 #134

Cubans do not starve or live in the streets in Cubs. Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #120

so much ignorance thanks to our wonderful MSM narratives newthinking Jun 2016 #128

Well. consider that you are also expressing your opinion of how you think they should progress newthinking Jun 2016 #15

You're right: advocating for them to make their own decisions, is, in a way.. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #18

I don't have a $600 iPhone. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #33

"supporting democracy does mean wanting them to make their own decisions" Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #36

The desire for things like that is always created from without. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #55

prosperity - lol SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #26

Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #27

what do you do to help the earth? SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #31

Sit glumly and wait for my moral betters to pass judgment on me on the internet. Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #32

done SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #34

whatever that means nt Dreamer Tatum Jun 2016 #35

I am not sure... RME_SFC Jun 2016 #95

Hahahahaha. mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2016 #84

blaming the political situation in Poland and Hungary on capitalism or on the market uhnope Jun 2016 #62

I have been to Cuba twice Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2016 #97

I disagree, I think much will be preserved Warpy Jun 2016 #7

I agree with you about the iron fist part. n/t. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #14

There is a GORGEOUS McDonald's right next to the Spanish Steps in Rome--to the right as you go up. MADem Jun 2016 #9

2nd picture, bottom left, is that 5 (at least) different kinds of salad to choose from? Electric Monk Jun 2016 #21

They have a self-serve option and lots of things that aren't on US menus. MADem Jun 2016 #59

This is your parody of yourself, right? Recursion Jun 2016 #28

It's not warped to believe a capitalist restoration in Cuba can't be anything but a tragedy. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #42

Well, fortunately you'll see how wrong you are in the next few years Recursion Jun 2016 #43

Nothing good for the people can come from greed. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #45

Nonsense Recursion Jun 2016 #48

the US is far better off than Cuba. they risk their lives to come here. you don't see that happening JI7 Jun 2016 #52

It's better in material terms. That isn't all that matters in life. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #53

how come you can't point to specific examples ? you are too hung up on trying to prove how liberal JI7 Jun 2016 #58

Democracy will bring in a market economy. The only thing stopping a market DanTex Jun 2016 #73

"Yes, people might have more things...but that isn't anything." lunamagica Jun 2016 #79

You're assuming we can even trust what the author at the link is saying. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #113

It should be up to them how they want to live. They don't exist for fulfill the fantasies of lunamagica Jun 2016 #126

"You can't have poetry and cultural truth AND McDonald's." sufrommich Jun 2016 #86

What's "authentic" about Soviet-style command economies? Adrahil Jun 2016 #137

that is one stupid cuban SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #11

Yep. In five words you have provided a comprehensive, erudite, and devastating rebuttal Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #17

only stupid people do not understand what is going to be lost soon SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #20

"it is sad that so many know so little" Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #23

lol SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #24

I have some questions about the facts the writer alleges in the opening Ash_F Jun 2016 #13

This is really the first you've heard about the poverty and dysfunction in Cuba? Recursion Jun 2016 #30

Cuba has problems. The reintroduction of massive corporations can't solve them. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #39

OK, tell India to turn back the clock and erase their middle class Recursion Jun 2016 #41

What about the millions forcibly driven from their homes so useless megadams could be built? Ken Burch Jun 2016 #47

Look, you're being absurd at this point Recursion Jun 2016 #50

It may be irreversible, but it never had to be done the way it was done. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #57

How much environmental devastation 1939 Jun 2016 #70

I never saw the Soviet Union as paradise, or socialist. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #105

Under socialsim, the government owns the means of production 1939 Jun 2016 #117

Actually, that's just one form of socialism Ken Burch Jun 2016 #121

Where each set of workers owns their own business 1939 Jun 2016 #135

That should be "the problem SOME socialists have". There is no unified "line" on that. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #139

"At this point"? B2G Jun 2016 #74

Yeah fair enough (nt) Recursion Jun 2016 #81

Those awful megadams. RandySF Jun 2016 #78

Read Arundhati Roy sometime. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #88

This is the first time I have heard a bottle of shampoo is 15% a doctor's monthly income Ash_F Jun 2016 #67

Fair question. Recursion Jun 2016 #68

Don't know much about it, outside of what people who have been there have written. Ash_F Jun 2016 #71

Good points. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #111

I posted down thread about my recent visit. Personal toiletries are in short supply and expensive. Coventina Jun 2016 #138

Is a bottle of shampoo $3 usd and a doctor's monthly salary $20? Ash_F Jun 2016 #140

Thank you for posting, this article is very much appreciated. Just reading posts Jun 2016 #29

Great article, and very similar to what most Cubans eissa Jun 2016 #37

The time warp image is largely imposed Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #124

Thank you, great post. My daughter and son-in-law visited and they loved the place. akbacchus_BC Jun 2016 #38

All the new buildings will be soulless skyscrapers. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #40

Am confused! Do you mean if America were to engage Cuba again, everything akbacchus_BC Jun 2016 #44

Engage, no. Insist on a market-driven economy, yes. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #46

I disagree that Cuba will lose its values to America's engagement. They been there and know akbacchus_BC Jun 2016 #49

To clarify, I'm not against the US engaging with Cuba. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #64

The only reason the quaint, falling apart buildings are there now 1939 Jun 2016 #72

Thanks....I won't say it again Hulk Jun 2016 #56

or paris or rome ? JI7 Jun 2016 #61

To me, this reads like ... nikto Jun 2016 #60

While I will never say something BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #65

Of course there's always someone somewhere telling us what to say and not say. LanternWaste Jun 2016 #69

I know, those uppity ethnic groups saying "please don't say this" and "please don't say that", Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #83

Let's keep in mind that Cuba is so 'authentic' in largely because of the embargo RandySF Jun 2016 #76

Thank you for making the case for lifting the embargo. Ken Burch Jun 2016 #115

It should been lifted at least 40 years ago. RandySF Jun 2016 #131

Turning it into "Fuck You, Pay Me" America isn't the answer either. HughBeaumont Jun 2016 #82

"see it before it's ruined" is the ultimate display of privilege. sufrommich Jun 2016 #85

Kim and Kanye have been there. So, it's already ruined like here. n/t Yavin4 Jun 2016 #89

Having just returned from Cuba, I have a quasi-rebuttle. Coventina Jun 2016 #90

Thank you. Were you on an organised tour? Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #127

Yes. Although we were given lots of free time to go and do whatever we wished. Coventina Jun 2016 #129

ITT: Cuban emigre wankers and tankies argue while everyone else shakes their head forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #93

I just want to see it as it is right now. MohRokTah Jun 2016 #94

Cuba is Eurotrash Central Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2016 #96

What the Hell did I just read? Aerows Jun 2016 #112

I have heard these things from many Cubans I've known, liberalhistorian Jun 2016 #132

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2016 #136