General Discussion

Igel

(37,468 posts)

67. It's easy to so focus on the bad that the good becomes invisible.

Tue Jul 5, 2016, 08:12 AM

Jul 2016

To so see that inequality is worse as to miss that things were better.

A decade or so ago some enterprising folks disaggregated some education data. Overall, achievement was improving slightly. The achievement gap between blacks and whites, bottom quintile and top quintile, was growing smaller. The equality folk were celebrating.

The great mass of kids were improving slightly. The bottom tier of kids--disproportionately minority--were also improving, but no faster than before ever after numerous modifications intended to boost learning. The top tier of kids was barely improving. The gap was decreasing not because the lowest tier was speeding up their gains but because the "improvements" led to the top tier slowing down. This was the cause of the celebration, and a lot of people saw no problem with this. Parents and many educators, however, did, because the goal of education is education and this wasn't it.

For equality, it was a good thing. For the kids, not a good thing, because that top tier could have been learning more and doing better.

You do the best you can, and hope not to be judged badly for not doing the things you can't. Empathy for others is good, but it's so 20th century a value. Mostly the 21st century value is in-group empathy.

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9 Ways FDR's 'New Deal' Purposely Excluded Blacks [View all] bravenak Jul 2016 OP

FDR had an impossible dilemma, not to apologize or excuse his choices. no_hypocrisy Jul 2016 #1

That's fine bravenak Jul 2016 #2

exactly. the problem is not that people may like him JI7 Jul 2016 #3

Yep. That's exactly it. bravenak Jul 2016 #4

+1! BlueMTexpat Jul 2016 #37

No, no. Igel Jul 2016 #62

I haven't seen anyone here BlueMTexpat Jul 2016 #80

Excellent point. greatauntoftriplets Jul 2016 #45

+2! BlueCaliDem Jul 2016 #101

LBJ on the other hand, defied the white racists in his civil rights . . . brush Jul 2016 #7

I agree. bravenak Jul 2016 #9

The Dixiecrat's were a separate party AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #12

Do some research. The dixiecrats weren't a separate party. brush Jul 2016 #19

The southern rights party sabbat hunter Jul 2016 #227

During the civil rights era of the '50s up to the mid-'60s can we agree that they were part of . . . brush Jul 2016 #240

Remember, though that LBJ came almost 20 years after FDR oberliner Jul 2016 #41

The dixiecrats still wielded a lot of power. People finally decided to stand up to the racism brush Jul 2016 #76

It's appreciated. no_hypocrisy Jul 2016 #39

But today's world view of FDR blends his positive approach to banking and depression repair floriduck Jul 2016 #102

It was WWII that gave America's economic improvements. eom fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #151

Then in your opinion, what was FDR's greatest accomplishment as President? floriduck Jul 2016 #192

Marrying the right woman. nt fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #217

In case you're a Democrat, please don't respond to any of my posts as I will not respond. floriduck Jul 2016 #219

I think you phrased that perfectly. eom fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #223

It's sort of like President Obama not getting single payer treestar Jul 2016 #48

you post the interesting stuff just when i need to be getting to bed. m-lekktor Jul 2016 #5

I should post earlier, but I always get too busy bravenak Jul 2016 #6

considering where I live compared to you m-lekktor Jul 2016 #8

Wow: the PTB must be really scared for them to smear FDR's policies like this. Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #10

The status quo is most certainly NOT WORSE for Black Americans. bravenak Jul 2016 #11

mass incarceration, lower life expectancy, voting rights abridged, poverty, ... Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #13

Lynchings, Jim Crow, beatings, segregation, miscegenation laws, race riots, chain gangs... bravenak Jul 2016 #15

Really? leftinportland Jul 2016 #20

They make perfect sense bravenak Jul 2016 #21

They amount to: I like being slapped in the face because no-one is kicking me in the teeth Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #25

Cause somehow intimating there was no mass incarcerations etc under FDR is totally logical!? uponit7771 Jul 2016 #35

No: but when the status quo includes de facto debtors' prisons, the good parts of history Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #50

Makes perfect sense to this Black Man AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #30

Nah, they make perfect sense to those who have empathy and a sense of introspection uponit7771 Jul 2016 #34

Of course not melman Jul 2016 #111

She is making perfect sense awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #130

it makes perfect sense. stonecutter357 Jul 2016 #253

Nobody wants those things back. alarimer Jul 2016 #53

I want affirmative action written into ANY New New Deal. bravenak Jul 2016 #88

What would your response be to those who might say... Ken Burch Jul 2016 #241

I would say bullshit bravenak Jul 2016 #246

OK. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #247

Things you mention were not policies or consequences of the New Deal jack_krass Jul 2016 #98

They existed and were not addressed bravenak Jul 2016 #99

Didn't Blacks have mass incarcerations, lower life expectancy, etc under FDR? AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #27

Perhaps we can focus on the point here: Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #57

Perhaps You should focus on the point here: AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #158

The new deal had nothing to do with racial equality. Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #189

This message is STILL not getting through to you guys. No one is saying that we shouldn't Squinch Jul 2016 #61

This! mcar Jul 2016 #74

"The refusal to acknowledge the fact of this is the reason BS lost" awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #131

What is sad is that even now, as we make the platform and plans for the future, we have to Squinch Jul 2016 #132

Some just refuse awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #133

There is no other explanation. And to do that, to see this from someone else's eyes, doesn't Squinch Jul 2016 #134

It migh cost them awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #136

That day happened for me in the eighties. Felt like the earth had opened up under me and there Squinch Jul 2016 #138

I always thought I was republican awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #140

I was always Independent, and politics was only part of it. I had a lot of bad information in Squinch Jul 2016 #141

You either didn't look or never cared about Sen. Sanders' racial justice platform. KeepItReal Jul 2016 #135

I'm not rehashing the primary, so all I will say is that, no, it was long after hers had been Squinch Jul 2016 #137

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #156

She was way earlier that that on racial justice bravenak Jul 2016 #159

"the likely presidential candidate". Your post ain't about the actual campaign. KeepItReal Jul 2016 #164

It absolutely is. Hillary will stand up for our right against Trump, and she started back in 2014 bravenak Jul 2016 #165

Well, there were the Japanese internment camps too.... Adrahil Jul 2016 #43

This isn't the powers that be, this is Bravenak. And stating the truth is not smearing FDR's Squinch Jul 2016 #58

I'll agree with you on that summary. Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #187

The OP is saying the New Deal had glaring and large problems. It is saying that nostalgia Squinch Jul 2016 #194

And the OP is wrong to do so: the TIME of the New Deal had glaring problems. Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #197

And the present TIME has glaring problems, hence the desire from people of color and women to put Squinch Jul 2016 #199

That spin is repulsively disingenuous. I object to vilification of economic reform - and somehow Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #218

Oh, for fuck's sake. You are shadow boxing! It doesn't matter what I say, or what anyone else Squinch Jul 2016 #220

Certainly you are being mean now: Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #244

I must admit my first reaction to this post was "OK, now it's time to begin distancing Clinton Gene Debs Jul 2016 #143

Yes, it's pretty disgusting. Betty Karlson Jul 2016 #188

OTOH, Eleanor Roosevelt stood up to the racist policy of the Daughters of the No Vested Interest Jul 2016 #14

Yes She DID. She was the best of the two. bravenak Jul 2016 #16

We're talking about FDR. AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #28

Interestingly, if FDR hadn't stood for economic fairness and cprise Jul 2016 #38

Appeals for racial equality were STILL absurd to most people in the decades that followed. AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #166

In case they missed it Haveadream Jul 2016 #242

Moving the goal posts = Slippery argument cprise Jul 2016 #264

Thank you, bravenak! This is important to share.. n/t pnwmom Jul 2016 #17

Very important right now. bravenak Jul 2016 #18

So LBJ is a bigger "hero" than FDR now? nikto Jul 2016 #22

Many seem to ignore the flaws bravenak Jul 2016 #23

It's easy to so focus on the bad that the good becomes invisible. Igel Jul 2016 #67

There is a lot of truth in your post, though perhaps not in the way you intended. BzaDem Jul 2016 #40

A good response to another one of these left wing revisionsist threads cutting down progressive Monk06 Jul 2016 #180

I guess it's indicative of just how far Conservatives/GOP/Reagan have, successfully moved ... nikto Jul 2016 #250

This leap you are all making is interesting. Bravenak is pointing out a flaw that must be Squinch Jul 2016 #64

Yes, thank you Squinch, precisely. sheshe2 Jul 2016 #110

Issues of Women and People of Color, and Economics...are separate? nikto Jul 2016 #252

Oh, Jesus, Mary and Joseph... Squinch Jul 2016 #258

Yeah, if only the Democratic Party can get rid of those old, dead ideas from the 30s thru the 70s nikto Jul 2016 #259

W. Wilson, The AF of L, and Business Unions killed off the Progressives by the 20s. jtuck004 Jul 2016 #24

I'm glad you enjoyed it. bravenak Jul 2016 #100

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jul 2016 #26

Anybody nostalgic for Clintonism... Chan790 Jul 2016 #44

This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Jul 2016 #47

FDR: Best President White America ever had AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #29

It was wonderful for them. They say so all the time. bravenak Jul 2016 #87

Thank you for pointing out FDR's dilemma ananda Jul 2016 #31

And out of homes, mortgages, and decent public schools JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #33

I stopped hoping heaven05 Jul 2016 #93

I'm kicking this- bravenak JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #32

Oh yeah! I have major trust issues. bravenak Jul 2016 #86

There is a very important lesson in WHY that was the case. BzaDem Jul 2016 #36

^^^ THIS ^^^ BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #51

Some great points. FDR did much, more than any other president in many ways, but there is much he pampango Jul 2016 #73

While FDR was far from perfect... Chan790 Jul 2016 #42

FDR has a Democratic majority at least treestar Jul 2016 #52

Inexplicable to you? ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #56

I think it's something he wants the black community to explain to him... Squinch Jul 2016 #78

"I don't get it." BumRushDaShow Jul 2016 #70

With all due respect, the OP makes no sense Albertoo Jul 2016 #46

^^^ THIS ^^^^ alittlelark Jul 2016 #146

That's nice bravenak Jul 2016 #149

^^^ THIS ^^^^ is Bullshit!!! Product of his time?! AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #167

Exaxtly bravenak Jul 2016 #172

A person in charge cannot change society with a magic wand Albertoo Jul 2016 #236

It was said somewhere that the US would be the most progressive treestar Jul 2016 #49

I agree with that. bravenak Jul 2016 #90

+ infinity etherealtruth Jul 2016 #121

K&R ismnotwasm Jul 2016 #54

So because progressive politics against inequality were racist in the past My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #55

What are you talking about? No one said anything remotely like this. Squinch Jul 2016 #59

That's how it reads to me My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #63

Then you need to read it again. Squinch Jul 2016 #65

I'm perfectly able to read and understand My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #66

Try this: Squinch Jul 2016 #68

Today's democratic party My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #69

I don't know what that means. BS and his followers insisted throughout the primary that Squinch Jul 2016 #72

What is the EXPLICIT plan My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #75

. Squinch Jul 2016 #77

And other people believe My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #84

That's the thing ... Those "other people" ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2016 #91

There is nothing status quo about reducing inequality. My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #92

Why is it asking too much to apply affirmative action to any new deal type legislation? bravenak Jul 2016 #97

You know the answer to those questions. 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2016 #104

Damn. Same answer as back in those wonderful days of nostalgia. NO! bravenak Jul 2016 #105

Both democratic candidates supported affirmative action My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #108

The difference in the approaches are remarkable bravenak Jul 2016 #109

I prefer broad, universal changes over My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #112

I prefer targeted relief to those who need it most bravenak Jul 2016 #113

To say that people who disagree with your preferred methods My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #116

Except I never actually called anyone racist this entire thread. bravenak Jul 2016 #117

No, no one's racist except FDR My Good Babushka Jul 2016 #123

That's nice. I have no idea how this discussion got to this point. bravenak Jul 2016 #125

I do JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #209

Right? bravenak Jul 2016 #211

There is EVERYTHING status quo about ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2016 #103

No. Increasing minimum wage, universal healthcare and expanding college in NO WAY address Squinch Jul 2016 #128

I don't think many people even know what Americas "economic programs" are in America. Sunlei Jul 2016 #126

Actually, that isn't true. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #225

No interest whatsoever in rehashing this. The point is that the language needs to be explicitly Squinch Jul 2016 #228

I agree that it should be. Always have. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #231

There is no takeaway melman Jul 2016 #118

i admire both fdr and lbj both had flaws but both heroes to me dembotoz Jul 2016 #60

Thanks for this perspective, brave mcar Jul 2016 #71

K&R Gothmog Jul 2016 #79

K&R betsuni Jul 2016 #81

I agree, many Americans never knew or do not care to face their REAL History. Sunlei Jul 2016 #82

but that gets in the way of our chanting usa usa usa on every stupid occasion dembotoz Jul 2016 #83

shallow ignorant people are always unhappy and easy to 'herd' Sunlei Jul 2016 #94

I NEVER get upset at the truth heaven05 Jul 2016 #85

I know thats right bravenak Jul 2016 #89

I totally understand what you are meaning hollowdweller Jul 2016 #95

What I mean is that affirmative action must be the foundation of any new deals or we wont bravenak Jul 2016 #96

And, you know what J Cole says happens on the third time! 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2016 #106

Fuck tha peace signs!! bravenak Jul 2016 #107

I know ... sadly! Why does a segment of the left ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2016 #114

Because they are specialer than we are bravenak Jul 2016 #115

LOL ... specialerest! 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2016 #120

What is it in YOUR thinking that prevents you from seeing that it is possible to pursue all the Squinch Jul 2016 #129

Again, some people don't actually read what you're saying gollygee Jul 2016 #119

I know. They actually read a whole bunch of stuff I did not say instead of what I say. bravenak Jul 2016 #122

K&R johnp3907 Jul 2016 #124

FDR democrats DonCoquixote Jul 2016 #127

I just wanted people to know why trying to use FDR to pull in minorities is failing bravenak Jul 2016 #152

FDR was the man who delivered the Democrats out of 70 years of post Civil War minority status Midwestern Democrat Jul 2016 #139

That has nothing to do with my op bravenak Jul 2016 #150

K&R Starry Messenger Jul 2016 #142

Hope yr having a good trip! bravenak Jul 2016 #174

I have been apologizing for my forefathers all my life when it comes to POC William769 Jul 2016 #144

This is why I love you Bill bravenak Jul 2016 #145

So you'll be refusing that Social Security, I guess. WinkyDink Jul 2016 #147

I Was excluded from the original SS. I thank Johnson for fixing that up for me. bravenak Jul 2016 #148

You were excluded from the original Social Security? Do tell. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2016 #184

From the Social Security Administration Web Site JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #202

Thanks. I hadn't realized bravenak had reached such an advanced age. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2016 #215

If you pay in - you have a stake JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #216

Nobody who cites FDR as an example today is defending his appeasement of segregationists, though. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #153

It is accurate anc true because it is history bravenak Jul 2016 #162

You are saying there is no chance that any progressive programs enacted today would exclude people Squinch Jul 2016 #195

That's a really good question JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #203

They are fighting this like we're asking them to give us their right arm. I truly don't get it. Squinch Jul 2016 #204

Yet - they want our money! JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #206

It isn't a problem for me, and I honesly have no idea why you think it would be. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #224

It is the entire purpose of this thread. POC and womed are saying, again, that they want the Squinch Jul 2016 #226

And I fully support this. So would all Sanders supporters, AFAIK. You're right to ask for this. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #229

Read the thread. This, for some reason, is very difficult for some to accept. And was been very Squinch Jul 2016 #230

FDR was a person of his time. Agnosticsherbet Jul 2016 #154

I agree bravenak Jul 2016 #161

I'm sure that elderly AAs appreciate your attack on a major portion of their retirement incomes. eridani Jul 2016 #155

This is an attack on the system not on black people bravenak Jul 2016 #157

You are written into Social Security now, which would not have happened unless it existed. eridani Jul 2016 #160

Has no bearing on the fact that we were intentionally left out by him bravenak Jul 2016 #163

There was a major correction when agricultural and household labor were covered by Social Security. eridani Jul 2016 #170

I never said mass incarceration was his failt. We have been holding blacks in incarceration bravenak Jul 2016 #171

I agree about the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act eridani Jul 2016 #175

Eisenhower did do that. And also did a bit of pre integration integration bravenak Jul 2016 #179

Everyone is good at lip service to social justice these days eridani Jul 2016 #237

Are you going to stop voting to protest the racism that established women's suffrage? eridani Jul 2016 #238

Like the ACA? treestar Jul 2016 #186

Why are people fighting so hard against the idea of explicitly including people of color and women Squinch Jul 2016 #196

This post has created a great discussion! K&R for that alone! AllTooEasy Jul 2016 #168

Went better than expected bravenak Jul 2016 #173

Can't swim in a pool, can't drive a nice car, can't get a mortgage and this is 2016. Rex Jul 2016 #169

Yes. He addressed class imbalances. The point is that going forward we need to always explicitly Squinch Jul 2016 #221

Good question, I see people claim to be progressives and then turn around and say Rex Jul 2016 #222

So which politician of the era was better for blacks? 1932 to 1945 The Second Stone Jul 2016 #176

Today is better for Blacks bravenak Jul 2016 #178

You're right, he was just a man. A man in a wheelchair The Second Stone Jul 2016 #181

Nobody saved the world. That is deification. bravenak Jul 2016 #182

I disagree with everything you wrote, The Second Stone Jul 2016 #183

That's fine that you disagree bravenak Jul 2016 #185

Great statement JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #205

We have the experience needed to empathize with oppressed people bravenak Jul 2016 #207

They also demand EXPLICIT answers JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #210

I'm still comfused as to why they are fighting the idea of legislating fairness into bravenak Jul 2016 #212

Shhh - don't tell JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #213

I agree with this so hard bravenak Jul 2016 #214

Things are better now...but NOT because New Deal economic policies are gone. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #232

Then why are people on this thread so opposed to writing affirmative action in? bravenak Jul 2016 #233

I haven't seen posts that actually are opposed to it. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #234

There just seems to be so much anger at the very idea that we do not trust bravenak Jul 2016 #235

I think it's anger that you're still attacking a guy whose presidential campaign is basically over. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #239

Fdr is not running for election bravenak Jul 2016 #245

This is a Bernie-bash thread melman Jul 2016 #248

Bull bravenak Jul 2016 #251

I wasn't talking about FDR. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #249

Well said! Cali_Democrat Jul 2016 #177

FWIW, I think you're right to expect/demand that economic justice programs be discrimination-free aikoaiko Jul 2016 #190

Right? What is so hard about this? What you have outlined is all that is being proposed here. Squinch Jul 2016 #198

I think is why many of us who supported Bernie had trouble getting support from African-Americans. Odin2005 Jul 2016 #191

Institutional racism was and is widespread malaise Jul 2016 #193

I can't wait for the follow-up: How the Constitution excluded Black peoples Bad Thoughts Jul 2016 #200

Tear it down? JustAnotherGen Jul 2016 #208

I can understand criticizing historical figures in this manner. David__77 Jul 2016 #201

K&R Haveadream Jul 2016 #243

K&R! stonecutter357 Jul 2016 #254

Thanks for the OP Sancho Jul 2016 #255

I see it too bravenak Jul 2016 #256

FDR also took the most important integration steps taken by the federal government since merrily Jul 2016 #257

What's the matter? A History that you do not want to believe? eom fleabiscuit Jul 2016 #260

Um, which part of history are you falsely claiming I don't want to believe and why do I supposedly merrily Jul 2016 #261

If we're going to be 100% truthful the only 2 Presidents in the 20th Century who actually did craigmatic Jul 2016 #262

I'm tired of people overly sentimentalizing the past lovemydog Jul 2016 #263