General Discussion

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)

6. The 401k idea was pure thievery in a couple ways.

Sat Jul 9, 2016, 09:43 AM

Jul 2016

First of all it provided corporations with the means to deny any loyalty to the workers who worked to build the company, to make it what it was.

They could just turn their backs and walk away. No pension liability at all. Close the factory and off to cheap labor. Even better when that labor didn't require SS investments, health insurance, or any other of those pesky regulatory limitations under the good ole American flag.

Combine that with the big merger and acquisition strategy of asset harvesting and it was a windfall for the investment class.

Which brings me to the second benefit: it provided a wonderful source of money for the Wall Street engines.

Not only does the company no longer have to invest in their workers, they can use those worker's deferred income to make even more money.

Win, win all around.

The shyster who came up with the idea was a nefarious genius.

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The typical American couple has only $5,000 saved for retirement [View all] RKP5637 Jul 2016 OP

35+ years of failed conservative economics 4dsc Jul 2016 #1

But the numbers are all over the place yeoman6987 Jul 2016 #18

Fuck. I ain't even got that. Hoppy Jul 2016 #34

I think this represents the great majority .. ananda Jul 2016 #42

It obviously includes all ages, and population Hortensis Jul 2016 #55

the article says "the median aged working couple...." mike_c Jul 2016 #130

Where did someone say 140k? Rex Jul 2016 #71

I've never before seen/heard any number anywhere near $140,000. snot Jul 2016 #143

Links? Wednesdays Jul 2016 #152

I've raided mine multiple time, where does the 10% penalty go? Demonaut Jul 2016 #2

Good question! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #4

To the US treasury Yupster Jul 2016 #76

Thanks! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #77

To fund Benghazi hearings. puffy socks Jul 2016 #135

I actually like my 401K, but... Adrahil Jul 2016 #3

I'm sure that's true, but... Orrex Jul 2016 #8

I hear ya.... Adrahil Jul 2016 #13

Yeah, that's about the size of it. Orrex Jul 2016 #35

That is the problem. Some really cannot afford it. However, if someone saved 100/month in an IRA or still_one Jul 2016 #25

I completely agree. +1. NT Adrahil Jul 2016 #28

Some people can't to be sure, but Yupster Jul 2016 #78

How can you tell someone to save when they cannot meet daily expenses? Drahthaardogs Jul 2016 #107

Long before 401-K 1939 Jul 2016 #117

I took full advantage of 401(k)'s when available � snot Jul 2016 #144

I am very sorry what happened to you, and as I mentioned, there are people who cannot still_one Jul 2016 #146

Agreed, thx. snot Jul 2016 #159

I see that as well GulfCoast66 Jul 2016 #145

We have a consumer driven society and most waste too much money taught_me_patience Jul 2016 #5

Yeah, blame the people. seabeckind Jul 2016 #7

There are plenty of families where both parents work LoverOfLiberty Jul 2016 #46

Can't argue with that logic. seabeckind Jul 2016 #51

I know plenty of "victims" LoverOfLiberty Jul 2016 #57

Oh, I'm sure you do. seabeckind Jul 2016 #58

You've insinuated I've not told the truth LoverOfLiberty Jul 2016 #94

I did nothing of the sort. seabeckind Jul 2016 #96

+1 (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #64

we are not allowed to talk about those people here Skittles Jul 2016 #137

Many times the victim needs to be blamed taught_me_patience Jul 2016 #114

To some extent, but then if everybody did the same... bhikkhu Jul 2016 #155

That is the case for some people, even many,but we are a society in which many of the members think Squinch Jul 2016 #115

I think that too often people make judgments about other people seabeckind Jul 2016 #122

And there is nothing in your post that disagrees with anything I have said. Squinch Jul 2016 #125

I wasn't disagreeing with you. seabeckind Jul 2016 #127

No. The situation that I described for the segment of our society I was describing is not complex. Squinch Jul 2016 #131

Couldn't Agree More shopgirl Jul 2016 #138

By the time you factor in all the costs that go into preparing meals at home, it's probably... ChisolmTrailDem Jul 2016 #72

Time, yes. But the other costs SheilaT Jul 2016 #92

Although I don't recommend them for every meal forthemiddle Jul 2016 #102

Cost of water? Travis_0004 Jul 2016 #104

What is the purpose of this: ChisolmTrailDem Jul 2016 #108

I dont think water is a significant cost when cooking. Travis_0004 Jul 2016 #119

I can cook enough for 2 to 5 meals in 30 minutes or less mythology Jul 2016 #141

As a working Mom with 2 teenage sons RazBerryBeret Jul 2016 #79

Amen. tavernier Jul 2016 #142

We need a third line showing population growth over that time period. SheilaT Jul 2016 #91

We save a ton. MissB Jul 2016 #110

That's not really a good example as BARS are included. SomethingFishy Jul 2016 #118

The 401k idea was pure thievery in a couple ways. seabeckind Jul 2016 #6

It was a shyster move, but yet many tout it as great. It's a feeding tray right into wall street. RKP5637 Jul 2016 #9

You realize that wall street makes more on pension fees right? taught_me_patience Jul 2016 #12

My gosh, that changes everything! seabeckind Jul 2016 #15

A lot of people do NOT relaize that. Adrahil Jul 2016 #17

The pension fees are borne by the pension funds seabeckind Jul 2016 #20

Where do you think that money comes from? NT Adrahil Jul 2016 #31

I just told you. seabeckind Jul 2016 #47

Right, so the worker pays indirectly.... Adrahil Jul 2016 #50

The worker pays ------- ZERO. seabeckind Jul 2016 #54

Depends on the job SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #66

Very true. I worked for one company that did that. seabeckind Jul 2016 #73

Not all "traditional", meaning back in the day, SheilaT Jul 2016 #99

I included a link below to a piece about the history of retirement seabeckind Jul 2016 #109

Right, even in the golden age the pension rate was under 50%. SheilaT Jul 2016 #140

Even if it doesn't show up on your stub... Adrahil Jul 2016 #134

Just talk to those with United Airlines when the defaulted on their pension plan still_one Jul 2016 #30

When I left the government 12 years ago.... Adrahil Jul 2016 #36

Yep, that's often what happens, the company goes belly up or raids the funds. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #40

Sounds like an excellent opportunity for bankruptcy! seabeckind Jul 2016 #56

Yep! It's a business plan for some companies! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #63

Twinkies-Maker Hostess Plans A $2.3 Billion Stock Offering seabeckind Jul 2016 #74

The previous CEO/henchmen drove the company into the ground. Outmoded RKP5637 Jul 2016 #75

Hedge fund harvest seabeckind Jul 2016 #80

I can't recall all of the details now, but one of the CEOs and his henchmen had a history RKP5637 Jul 2016 #90

I think Bain was knee deep in these harvests. seabeckind Jul 2016 #95

Thank you, yes, exactly!!! And what really irks me, they try to make everything sound like it's RKP5637 Jul 2016 #98

Also, many 401Ks today allow for self-directed 401Ks, where the participant chooses the fund, ETF, still_one Jul 2016 #26

Mine isn't quite that flexible... Adrahil Jul 2016 #38

Good. I hope the fees are low still_one Jul 2016 #86

These will become less available Yupster Jul 2016 #81

I hear you, but it also allows workers to say "screw you" and walk away from the employer. Hoyt Jul 2016 #22

And then what? seabeckind Jul 2016 #23

money enid602 Jul 2016 #67

You have failed to explain why LoverOfLiberty Jul 2016 #49

I think another problem is people who do contribute, but Yupster Jul 2016 #82

People don't understand how it adds up over time taught_me_patience Jul 2016 #126

And next month there will be a MW article with the sadz about how we don't spend enough. Brickbat Jul 2016 #10

Yep! That's the F'en game in the US. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #11

Ain't it great? The poor working bastard gets to hear how fucking stupid he Nay Jul 2016 #24

I disagree with this. I don't think there will ever be a cultural change that makes our culture Squinch Jul 2016 #158

Yeah, but so what? Squinch Jul 2016 #156

yep living paycheck to paycheck produces no savings dembotoz Jul 2016 #14

And there are millions and millions in the US in the same situation, yet their voices go RKP5637 Jul 2016 #16

And the investment guy on the radio says I need $1M Ilsa Jul 2016 #19

He needs you to invest $1M seabeckind Jul 2016 #21

You need to change investment guys Yupster Jul 2016 #83

Do away with the guy and buy a target fund taught_me_patience Jul 2016 #124

It's rough. Money flies out the window quickly when the paycheck stops. My dad, years RKP5637 Jul 2016 #29

Two words edhopper Jul 2016 #27

Exactly!!! And the prices keep going up and up. Just the grocery bills for two are getting RKP5637 Jul 2016 #33

Yes edhopper Jul 2016 #45

There may be big markups on individual items SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #68

Yep, here's an interesting article on that. RKP5637 Jul 2016 #70

For me it comes down to this: do I put my "extra" money toward my kids' education or Still In Wisconsin Jul 2016 #32

And "if" jobs are even available. Job pickings get pretty slim for retirees. Probably RKP5637 Jul 2016 #37

Perhaps. The advantage of putting a little money away in a tax deferred savings vehicle, is that still_one Jul 2016 #59

So they won't be retiring. LS_Editor Jul 2016 #39

Austerity by design. The .01% don't believe humans contribute to humanity when they're comfortable. ancianita Jul 2016 #41

Yep, it's not by chance this is happening, it's the design of the system, and IMO it's RKP5637 Jul 2016 #43

The Wokes' hesitancy to fight comes from being weakened by soothing messages to WAIT. ancianita Jul 2016 #48

Exactly!!! "for a future that they imagine but which never comes." n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #61

My thought on this is many live in denial. Retirement is a long way off and cost of RKP5637 Jul 2016 #44

Which points out one problem. Igel Jul 2016 #52

"Many" doesn't explain most LoverOfLiberty Jul 2016 #53

The earlier people start to save whether for retirement or their child's education, the more options still_one Jul 2016 #62

We set up a college fund for our kid the month he was born Yupster Jul 2016 #84

Agreed. 529's have issues also, but it sounds to me that you did good, but so much effort and time still_one Jul 2016 #85

This calls for a picture, words cannot do it justice. seabeckind Jul 2016 #60

+10000 brilliant graphic AntiBank Jul 2016 #121

It's been several years, but I read an article that stated CrispyQ Jul 2016 #65

Yep, same with many of us. My job today in IT today would be in some other country. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #69

Another thing related is the war on savings edhopper Jul 2016 #87

Yep, my local bank pays about .01% interest. And FFS, they try to make this sound like a great RKP5637 Jul 2016 #93

The low interest rates are a trap Yupster Jul 2016 #106

The fed interest rate is not for consumers. seabeckind Jul 2016 #128

Thanks for bringing this up. senseandsensibility Jul 2016 #147

there are strong unions still in the media edhopper Jul 2016 #150

Portability and 4.6yr avg term of employment One_Life_To_Give Jul 2016 #88

Piqued my interest so I googled retirement info seabeckind Jul 2016 #89

It seems that a lot of people dumbcat Jul 2016 #97

For most it's children versus a 401K. roamer65 Jul 2016 #100

Yep! Exactly! Many can't save no matter how much they want too. But still they are RKP5637 Jul 2016 #101

Yes, but they have assault rifles. HassleCat Jul 2016 #103

Yeah! Very likely! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #105

The 401k makes a commercial airline pilot of everyone Sen. Walter Sobchak Jul 2016 #111

Yep, it's far more complicated than many understand. And most lay people trade RKP5637 Jul 2016 #112

You can just choose the target date fund taught_me_patience Jul 2016 #113

I did that for three years. Lost a ton of money. Went to a combination of unmanaged Squinch Jul 2016 #116

I tend to believe these numbers. roamer65 Jul 2016 #120

But, but, look what they could save on taxes. seabeckind Jul 2016 #123

Low income people should choose the Roth 401 k option Yupster Jul 2016 #157

Exactly what's going on. And then TPTB try to make people feel quilty. The US is a warped RKP5637 Jul 2016 #132

Yup, we are fucked. AngryAmish Jul 2016 #129

Newly Retired.... heresAthingdotcom Jul 2016 #133

K&R !!! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #136

Do you feel like you have too much money in one company's stock? Yupster Jul 2016 #139

Thanks for sharing and for all you're doing! Rhiannon12866 Jul 2016 #148

What were the particulars about this "retooling"? seabeckind Jul 2016 #151

Someone has THAT much? n/t raven mad Jul 2016 #149

There are many different ways to count that bhikkhu Jul 2016 #153

Yep, definitely, there are many ways to count it and lots of variables. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2016 #154