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Igel

(37,541 posts)
72. No, most people don't see why it's so incredibly difficult to get any traction.
Sun Jul 10, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jul 2016

Bare numbers mean nothing.

My high school is perhaps 20% black, 25% Latino. But perhaps 40% of the kids who are suspended are black, and perhaps 40% are Latino. They're almost all male. Girls who land in suspension usually just rack up tardy points. Same for whites. Enough tardies and you're out for a day. But the reasons for suspension are illicit substances and fights, and when you're busted for those the only questions are, "Is that you on the video?" It's zero tolerance. If there's a report of a fight, of drugs, it's investigated. Often by the time the principals come for a person the paperwork for the punishment's already completed. The numbers look racist; but the process isn't racist, unless we look at "structural racism" and ignore the causes for the discrepancy. (Even then, does that mean half the black guys in fights get a pass to avoid disproportionality?) No, the expectations of behavior are clear; subcohort standards for behavior are at odds with those expectations. For some, landing in suspension is a badge of honor. Standing up to authority and making punishments sometimes worse is a badge of honor.

Don't get me wrong, numbers are a good start. It gets rid of the media bias we see. 570 deaths, we see 8 of them, all blue killing black, mostly unarmaed black. Hmmm ... the Guardian lists 24 unarmed black deaths-by-police, and that's 5% of the total death toll. But it's nearly 100% of the video we see. There's a stong bias there, one that can warp perceptions just like having the mainstream media just show blacks as criminals warps perceptions. But the numbers are just numbers and aren't understanding.

What we have is "the only reason for disproportionality is racism; the numbers are disproportionate, proving the presence of racism." That's assuming the premise.

After disposing of the bias, to get traction you have to show that there's actual racism. Again, disparate impact doesn't cut it because there's a mess of data showing disproportionate rates of involvement in crime by geography, by race and ethnicity, by age, by income. Scoring a possible point for the racism argument is that Latinos show no or trivial disproportionality for either overall deaths by cop or unarmed deaths by cop. On the other hand, they're reflected in crime stats, both convictions, arrests, and reported crimes, in a far less disproportionate way.


The point is that facile statistical claims look bad when you lift the corner of the carpet. Suddenly the disproportionality that's important isn't in the stats. The number of armed blacks killed is disproportionately higher than whites with respect to the entire population. Is that due to racism? Or due to # of interactions with police? Or due to higher criminality among the 15-29 year old black male population? Is there something about the interaction that could be helped? We simply don't know. There have been at most 70 or so excess black deaths, armed and unarmed, using the numbers the Guardian has (and ignoring the "unknowns&quot . But that's an upper bound to excess black deaths due to police bigotry. (And I'm leaving out how the number may change slightly from week to week.)

But presenting deaths-by-cop where the guy killed is clearly in the wrong is emphatically not a good way to start. "J was killed because he was pointed a gun and shooting at cops while black." Uh ... True, those numbers are disproportionate, but more importantly we don't have a good idea about *how* they come to be disproportionate, or even, at times, how disproportionate they really are. Take, for example, the Guardians numbers as of a few days ago: they listed 42 unarmed white deaths/212 armed deaths, for a ratio of about 1:5 (19.8%). It listed 24 unarmed black deaths/102 armed black deaths, for a radio of about 1:5 (23.5%). The obvious "racism" in those numbers boils down to 6.5 black (mostly) men so far this year. (Castile's death was labeled "disputed" as to whether he was armed or not at the time.) One problem with those numbers is that there might have been a small statistical bump in the week before that either reduced or increased one of those percentages.

Now, 6-7 excess unarmed black deaths is a lot, but not a truly humongous number. But that's not what perceptions are. And nobody, but nobody, likes that number. It should be zero, in a color-blind society. If justice is supposed to be blind, it's certainly supposed to be color blind. It's not in the hundreds, however, nor is it as one DUer said, the leading cause of death for blacks in America, in the thousands.

The male/female skew is one that we're used to. It exists, to be clear. There's no question. We assume that this obviously sexist bias. (I mean, the numbers say that, right--most of those killed by cops are men, but society is about 50-50? Oh. We assume a difference in behavior that accounts for this. But keep in mind, that difference in behavior also means cops are more likely to be distrustful when dealing with a man than with a woman, so given exactly the same actions and behaviors by an individual man or woman the man is at higher risk. That's sexism. But it's accepted sexism, and rational sexism. Men overall are more aggressive, so we assume that each man individually is average.) It might be interesting to disaggregate the Guardian's numbers not just by ethnicity and armed/unarmed but to include sex. Moving on ...

What's left to look at is the number of deaths overall, which is where we started. But again, those numbers assume that there's no difference in behavior, culture, poverty, geographical dispersal, education, attitude, age distrbution, gun ownership, etc., etc., between whites and blacks. But we still have to assume there's racism, just not blue-on-brown (i.e., Latino) racism. And we ignore the even more obvious "sexism," because we're assuming there's no difference in behavior. Yeah, that's whack.

I, for one, am not comfortable with those assumptions, which assumes there is no racism at any point in the entire society until the blue person approaches a black person. Nor am I comfortable with the assumption that it's all racism, and any differences in behavior have to just be accommodated in a just society (the alternative is separatism, and I've seen that advocated). I'm also not comfortable with the idea of writing off behavior widely deemed anti-social because of a disparate impact result.

So the number of excess black deaths may be as high as 70 so far this year, the difference you get just looking at population demographics. Or it might be below 7 (keeping in mind that when you get to numbers that small, you're going to see that the error margin might eat up most of the signal). Of course, that assumes "excess" is what's important, and that whites are the baseline for what we expect. Meh.

But a national movement over perhaps 16 excess deaths for the *year* isn't something that pushes my buttons, not when that can be the disproportionate death toll over a 3-day weekend from just 3-4 major cities; the assumed annual rate of around 140 excess black deaths seems way too high given the general stats I know about American society and subgroup behavior. Esp. when the actual "excess black death toll" is far higher than just those killed by police--and, in fact, the disproportionality of black deaths to total population at the hands of police is very close to the disproportionality of black deaths at the hands of other civilians. There's a problem, and we're hopping mad over only the small portion of it that feeds the correct narrative.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

What about the 238 white people killed this year? Travis_0004 Jul 2016 #1
Those would be the subject of another OP, one not dedicated to dead black people, perhaps. . . Journeyman Jul 2016 #2
He made it part of this thread. pintobean Jul 2016 #16
You aren't the thread cop, either. KMOD Jul 2016 #26
Lol. There was nothing uncivil about my post pintobean Jul 2016 #29
Calling someone a thread cop KMOD Jul 2016 #30
I don't think you should be lecturing anyone pintobean Jul 2016 #31
You certainly did. KMOD Jul 2016 #32
Short memory, apparently. Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #57
I see the word "not". pintobean Jul 2016 #64
Truly. n/t Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #56
They do not seem to matter, sadly Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #3
Of course we all want the police to shoot fewer people, KMOD Jul 2016 #6
no one has denied that. The question is why should the lives of whites killed be ignored puffy socks Jul 2016 #77
they shouldn't. KMOD Jul 2016 #78
who has "dimissed" the black lives matter in bringing up puffy socks Jul 2016 #80
You asked what the point was in dividing ourselves. KMOD Jul 2016 #82
Caring about white deaths doesnt mean people dont care about black deaths. puffy socks Jul 2016 #83
Wow really? Rex Jul 2016 #36
The obtuseness of that one awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #85
Tell it to the police. n/t Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #58
I think black people are 13% of the population. EOM IL Lib Jul 2016 #4
12.1% or 14%, depending on how you count. Igel Jul 2016 #67
Please start a thread listing the names of all the white people who were KMOD Jul 2016 #5
Please tell us how many of the 125 in the OP are due to "subconscious prejudice"? pipoman Jul 2016 #7
Please tell me you are not blind to the fact that many KMOD Jul 2016 #10
I'm not blind at all....including color blind...people of all colors are killed by police pipoman Jul 2016 #11
I read your post twice. sheshe2 Jul 2016 #21
Police shoot dogs and humans with impunity. pipoman Jul 2016 #37
I'm sorry, I'm having a very hard time comprehending KMOD Jul 2016 #27
What don't you understand.... pipoman Jul 2016 #39
FFS malaise Jul 2016 #63
Agreed. Travis_0004 Jul 2016 #14
You really don't see the difference. KMOD Jul 2016 #17
So have many white men. puffy socks Jul 2016 #79
I come up with an upper bound of around 70. Igel Jul 2016 #68
How many white people were targeted because of their skin color? liberalmuse Jul 2016 #9
whataboutism YoungDemCA Jul 2016 #12
Thank you, YoungDemCA. Glad to see that exposed in writing, finally. n/t Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #59
Percentages and ratios must be hard for you. Read more. Nt Logical Jul 2016 #13
There's only one story permitted melman Jul 2016 #18
What's sick is the feigning ignorance of the disproportional # of blacks being shot seein we only.. uponit7771 Jul 2016 #22
What is sick, KMOD Jul 2016 #24
Why so defensive? Such an interesting reaction. Rex Jul 2016 #34
Blacks are 3 times more likely to be shot by cops, if whites were 3 times more likely there would be uponit7771 Jul 2016 #20
Why are you defensive? Rex Jul 2016 #33
Please, at your own leisure, find your own article regarding police-killed white people's names, Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #55
compare to the proportion of the white population number treestar Jul 2016 #75
First name on the list is Germonta Wallace. Here's his story: Nye Bevan Jul 2016 #8
You should post that article as an original article on your own thread, as soon as possible. Thanks. Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #60
Randomly googling names from that list informs me EL34x4 Jul 2016 #66
Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #15
Unbelievable melman Jul 2016 #23
percentages and proportionality must not be your strong suit either hunh? We just whinin uponit7771 Jul 2016 #25
Did I post "the white list"? (whatever the fick that is) pipoman Jul 2016 #35
OMG KMOD Jul 2016 #40
Anyone who isn't thankful Cedric Ford was killed when he was is a complete idiot. pipoman Jul 2016 #42
Right. All those people that brought up Cedric Ford in this thread... Rex Jul 2016 #44
What's your point? pipoman Jul 2016 #47
He's on the list that is the subject of the OP. pintobean Jul 2016 #48
Good try at a save, but fail. Rex Jul 2016 #49
Not at all. pintobean Jul 2016 #50
Really? You seem to be the one freaking out. Rex Jul 2016 #51
red herring, you didn't post any list you're either ignoring the main point that blacks are 3 time uponit7771 Jul 2016 #73
this list doesn't include hill2016 Jul 2016 #19
Oh good grief. KMOD Jul 2016 #28
Wow what is with the obvious hostility toward this thread? nt Rex Jul 2016 #38
A list of justifiably dead criminals with a few unjust homicides/murders pipoman Jul 2016 #41
Why? It just says Black People Police Have Shot And Killed. Rex Jul 2016 #43
Who gives a single shit what color a dead murderer is? pipoman Jul 2016 #45
I think you are wrong, it is just a simple claim that is true. Rex Jul 2016 #46
Very true Duckhunter935 Jul 2016 #65
This is false on its face, blacks are 3 TIMES more likely to be shot!!! That's the point not just... uponit7771 Jul 2016 #74
Why do some appear to go out of there way and distract from the murders of still_one Jul 2016 #52
Because the OPs linked list itself is a distraction from their murders. Lancero Jul 2016 #69
ok, point taken still_one Jul 2016 #71
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Jul 2016 #53
Interesting, isn't it? These people don't seem to know Democrats are strong on civil rights, Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #61
Its astounding n/t etherealtruth Jul 2016 #81
Many of the responses within this thread SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2016 #54
There are far more good people here, and in the country, and in the world than there are trolls. n/t Judi Lynn Jul 2016 #62
No, most people don't see why it's so incredibly difficult to get any traction. Igel Jul 2016 #72
The knee-jerk reaction reminds me of this piece of brilliance caraher Jul 2016 #70
I think this website puts in a better perceptive of people killed by police kimbutgar Jul 2016 #76
before i clicked on this OP i KNEW there'd be a whiney 'but what about whiiiiite people' responses KG Jul 2016 #84
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