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TubbersUK

(1,517 posts)

116. I truly don't know

Mon Jul 18, 2016, 06:14 AM

Jul 2016

Here in the UK we have a long and honoured history of purported (often strident) Christians like Thatcher, Blair and Cameron supporting, appeasing and selling arms to the execrable Wahabists.

Moreover, the general population (64% self-identified Christian) doesn't particularly care.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/25/david-cameron-brilliant-uk-arms-exports-saudi-arabia-bae

David Cameron boasts of 'brilliant' UK arms exports to Saudi Arabia

David Cameron has boasted of his efforts to help sell “brilliant things” such as Eurofighter Typhoons to Saudi Arabia on the day the European parliament voted for an arms embargo on the country over its bombardment of Yemen.

Britain’s relations with Saudi Arabia are based on extensive business and investment links, including defence sales and a secretive security connection that is routinely cited as vital by the UK government – especially when public opinion hones in on the Gulf country’s strict legal system.

In 2006 the Saudi government threatened to end cooperation with Britain unless the serious fraud office dropped its investigation into BAE Systems over the al-Yamamah arms deal. It was shelved by Tony Blair on national security grounds. David Cameron alluded to the same argument recently when asked about UK willingness to rock the Saudi boat over the planned execution of Ali Mohammed Baqir al-Nimr, sentenced for allegedly taking part in a protest when he was 17. “It’s because we receive from them important intelligence and security information that keeps us safe,” the prime minister told Jon Snow on Channel 4.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/uk-saudi-arabia-relationship-under-growing-strain
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html

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Islam, as it is practiced by a majority of muslims in the world, is a regressive force. [View all] Kurska Jul 2016 OP

This should go well.... Scurrilous Jul 2016 #1

+1 bravenak Jul 2016 #2

its practiced by close to a plurality of the world, not anywhere close to a majority ericson00 Jul 2016 #3

I meant as it is practiced by a majority of Muslims, not as a majority of the world. Kurska Jul 2016 #4

probably should fix the title of the thread ericson00 Jul 2016 #5

Clearer? EOM Kurska Jul 2016 #6

yes. ericson00 Jul 2016 #11

That claim is simply false and sad Gothmog Jul 2016 #179

Yeah, yeah we get it.... Muslims are bad. giftedgirl77 Jul 2016 #7

are Evangelicals bad people or Mormons bad people? No, but progressives criticize their religion ericson00 Jul 2016 #9

+1 Kurska Jul 2016 #12

Putting our economic/military strength behind wahabists cprise Jul 2016 #77

If the tables were turned, I still wouldn't be stoning women and killing gays. Kurska Jul 2016 #78

Most of the 20th century would beg to disagree with your tautology. cprise Jul 2016 #92

Pretending that the current social policies are anything but continous from ones thousands of years Kurska Jul 2016 #99

A truly excellent reply that is obviously not in tune guillaumeb Jul 2016 #226

Basic difference: No one in the U.S. foreign policy establishment... Ken Burch Jul 2016 #105

the US FP establishment is NOT pushing some kind of ericson00 Jul 2016 #109

I'm not an "Islam-defender"...It's just that I'm not an anti-Islam obsessive. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #113

"Nothing anyone said about the Soviet model from outside had anything to do with it. ' Kurska Jul 2016 #141

I agree that those countries are backwards places. Repression anywhere should be denounced. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #186

So Ken, please dictate the limits LGBT must respect when objecting to the lash and Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #143

Wasn't talking about LGBTQ people here, and would never limit your right to speak out. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #177

It's just about the same as the rhetoric of colonialism Chathamization Jul 2016 #195

Therefore, we should send in the Marines. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #199

Such tolerant liberals don't mind 840high Jul 2016 #54

I agree that secular liberals, such as myself, should be able to criticize Chakab Jul 2016 #64

Except Muslims aren't making the laws here cprise Jul 2016 #81

+1 n/t TubbersUK Jul 2016 #133

Thank you! ++++++++++ grossproffit Jul 2016 #123

Well, I live in Malaysia for a while. Women are required to dress like muslim women need to Feeling the Bern Jul 2016 #71

Your post NEEDS to be READ and REREAD grossproffit Jul 2016 #124

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #73

Not all of the people... TipTok Jul 2016 #98

the concept of separation of church and state is lacking JI7 Jul 2016 #8

You might as well say "Brown/Black" people are regressive force in world kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #10

I gave a list of many Muslim countries that are far from third world. Kurska Jul 2016 #13

Those countries certainly are incredibly rich... for some people ck4829 Jul 2016 #15

Mostly for the Native Citizens in areas like UAE. Kurska Jul 2016 #16

Wealth in Gulf is not because of advanced soceity kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #20

+1 cheapdate Jul 2016 #84

+1 TubbersUK Jul 2016 #184

Have you met an ulta-orthodox Jew? Gothmog Jul 2016 #180

the colonialism the Muslim world experienced pales in comparison to that of sub-Saharan Africa, ericson00 Jul 2016 #14

South America is another very good example of this EOM Kurska Jul 2016 #17

Those countries just imprison gays for years at a time or up to life ck4829 Jul 2016 #19

Now imagine there was a HDI and victimization of colonialism map overlaid ontop of that Kurska Jul 2016 #24

Your agenda is so obvious, I shouldn't bother kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #23

The Middle East is far behind every single area of the world on these issues Kurska Jul 2016 #25

Why do you think gays have similar rights (no rights) in places like kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #28

the West Indies are very anti gay in cultrure, but many of the smaller islands don't do AntiBank Jul 2016 #60

How have you managed to separate terrorism from social development and progress? sibelian Jul 2016 #154

Most Muslims live in lands forcibly converted by Arab/Muslim colonizers. Was it racism? Albertoo Jul 2016 #75

Colonialism 1939 Jul 2016 #104

Why would the colonized have a more regressive view of women, homosexuals and ethnic Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2016 #130

Islam pre-dates colonialism get the red out Jul 2016 #131

The western world's progressive values *resulted* in its wealth and education... sibelian Jul 2016 #161

"Christianity, as it is practiced by a majority of Christians in the world, is a regressive force." enough Jul 2016 #18

DU has no problem admitting that, so I don't understand why the inverse is offensive to people EOM Kurska Jul 2016 #21

Don't you love the double standard? backscatter712 Jul 2016 #36

.that^ 840high Jul 2016 #52

this ^^^^^^^^^^ AntiBank Jul 2016 #62

this ^^^^ that^^^^ delete_bush Jul 2016 #76

Bigoted shitlord awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #82

+1 Marr Jul 2016 #89

Yep romanic Jul 2016 #108

+1. NutmegYankee Jul 2016 #110

That's not what they are critical of treestar Jul 2016 #134

The most benign interpretation of what they moght want Ken Burch Jul 2016 #222

Some on DU feel compelled leftynyc Jul 2016 #135

+ another 1 nt riderinthestorm Jul 2016 #146

It has become pathological. sibelian Jul 2016 #151

"How come I can criticize white people but people call me a bigot when I criticize black people?" Chathamization Jul 2016 #157

"the difference between minority groups and majority groups." sibelian Jul 2016 #159

You honestly see no difference between someone saying "stupid white people" and someone saying Chathamization Jul 2016 #160

... sibelian Jul 2016 #164

So if someone said "I hate Christians" you'd treat them the same as somone who said "I hate Jews"? Chathamization Jul 2016 #169

In Saudi Arabia, they're the majority. See how they act? backscatter712 Jul 2016 #162

Also, I criticize the religion, and the repressive culture that has formed around the religion. backscatter712 Jul 2016 #163

If you're not criticizing the people, perhaps don't write "See how they act?" to show us how Chathamization Jul 2016 #170

Because those who want to label Islam as "regressive" only want that label put in place Ken Burch Jul 2016 #191

You're right about that... backscatter712 Jul 2016 #32

Well said! JNelson6563 Jul 2016 #63

Seriously? This is posted here almost daily. grossproffit Jul 2016 #126

Replace with Religion is a regressive force. NightWatcher Jul 2016 #22

I personally agree religion practiced as public policy is horrible idea kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #26

No sorry, there are other factors in play. Kurska Jul 2016 #30

You don't make one bit of sense kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #35

African slave trade was originally and finally a Muslim practice, they started it and Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #33

What is your point? kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #38

The post I responded to, you asked if Christianity was the root cause of slavery, I pointed Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #144

Saying "all religions are just as bad" is nothing but a trope Kurska Jul 2016 #27

I tend to agree TubbersUK Jul 2016 #102

Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism sibelian Jul 2016 #153

Oh...just say it. bdwker Jul 2016 #183

Here's world opinion on conducting war and murdering civilians in the process: cpwm17 Jul 2016 #29

The OP is about Islam which is a school of thought that includes execution of LGBT. Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #37

In 1950s only 4% Americans approved interracial marriage kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #39

The OP was about comparing the character Muslims to other groups. cpwm17 Jul 2016 #43

The OP is about Islam which is a school of thought that includes execution of LGBT. Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #142

War is the ultimate evil. cpwm17 Jul 2016 #148

"This is not surprising considering the acute conflicts raging ericson00 Jul 2016 #40

How have all our wars against the Muslim world turned out? cpwm17 Jul 2016 #47

Those stats are scary and what has me concered. MariaThinks Jul 2016 #31

Even scarier is what muslims think of other religions in muslim majority countries MariaThinks Jul 2016 #34

Do you know the oldest Christian/Jewish communities are in muslim countries? kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #42

have you read the numbers? what is the acceptance of Christianity or Judaism in the MariaThinks Jul 2016 #50

It is recent problem because there is nothing inhiretently in Islam against Jews/Christians kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #51

Not only recent. There is a long history of persecutions of non-Muslims in Muslim lands. hrmjustin Jul 2016 #83

Except that Jews/Christians and that 2nd status thing riderinthestorm Jul 2016 #145

Yep. 840high Jul 2016 #53

You are so right! demosincebirth Jul 2016 #95

"Asked of Muslims only" I wonder what the results would be if we only asked Muslims about... ck4829 Jul 2016 #41

Most sensible answer kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #44

You can repeat that mantra all you want. Kurska Jul 2016 #45

Your whole arguement is based on the gulf countries kcjohn1 Jul 2016 #48

No, compare nations like Brazil/Bolivia/Vietnam/ to nations like Egypt/Iran/Algeria/Morocco. Kurska Jul 2016 #49

Go to an ultra-orthdox community is you want to see repression Gothmog Jul 2016 #181

No. sibelian Jul 2016 #150

It certainly can be. The biggest problem are people who are conservative/Fundamentalist types The Straight Story Jul 2016 #46

Becoming Liberal and progressive... True Dough Jul 2016 #96

Yes TubbersUK Jul 2016 #97

Straight, we have, at long last, found a subject on which we wholeheartedly agree. Great post. Squinch Jul 2016 #129

6 percent? PlanetaryOrbit Jul 2016 #55

This is bullshit jpak Jul 2016 #56

The top of which list? muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #147

The more we attack them, the more they radicalize, the worse they get AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #57

Iraq gives us one more country that we can look down on as inferior to us. cpwm17 Jul 2016 #65

"invading their countries to steal oil" Where did that happen? EX500rider Jul 2016 #193

It happened in Iraq AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #206

Iraq sell their oil on the open market like every other oil producing country. EX500rider Jul 2016 #211

Am I supposed to believe AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #220

So you think we invaded the country for a few months of free oil? lol EX500rider Jul 2016 #232

Oil was still being stolen unmetered as of 2007 AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #235

"Oil was still being stolen unmetered as of 2007" Any reputable links for that? EX500rider Jul 2016 #237

Why are you so defensive of the Bush administrations Iraq invasion? AgingAmerican Jul 2016 #240

The UK had very keen interest in it I'm ashamed to say TubbersUK Jul 2016 #238

Invade their countries, execute their leaders, and convert the people alain2112 Jul 2016 #58

who ever said that? Not everyone who criticizes any aspect of Islam is a warmonger! ericson00 Jul 2016 #66

+100 mr_liberal Jul 2016 #59

This message was self-deleted by its author closeupready Jul 2016 #61

That's why nuclear, solar and fracking are such good ideas Albertoo Jul 2016 #72

Bingo +1 Kurska Jul 2016 #74

the data you show is also a good case to ericson00 Jul 2016 #67

Islam has not yet modernized as many other religions have bluestateguy Jul 2016 #68

See the OP: most Muslims do not reject oppression of gays and free speech Albertoo Jul 2016 #70

Worse: Islam has been devised as an regressive force extremely difficult to reform Albertoo Jul 2016 #69

The numbers don't lie. Islam Is REGRESSIVE ram2008 Jul 2016 #79

And the causes go back hundreds of years Kurska Jul 2016 #80

Most Muslims just want to live in peace. Deal with it. Doodley Jul 2016 #87

Death penalty for gays, adulterers and blasphemers is peace? Albertoo Jul 2016 #90

So why are crime rates a small fraction in Muslim nations, compared to USA? Doodley Jul 2016 #85

Maybe because reporting crimes gets you in trouble? Albertoo Jul 2016 #88

Where's the moral compass in Christianity. Doodley Jul 2016 #91

we already know right wing christians suck and it's good we have separation of church and state JI7 Jul 2016 #93

I don't care. And "turn the other cheek" and "slay the infidels" are two very different ideologies Albertoo Jul 2016 #100

I truly don't know TubbersUK Jul 2016 #116

Islam is in need of a reformation towards the progressive end. hrmjustin Jul 2016 #86

But repeating the West's history would make them cprise Jul 2016 #94

You're talking politics, I am talking religion. hrmjustin Jul 2016 #101

Islam needs a Renaissance. DetlefK Jul 2016 #106

Islam already had its Renaissance, sadly Seeking Serenity Jul 2016 #173

True. But confrontations started by outsiders can't cause that. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #107

You have just won a BlueMTexpat Jul 2016 #103

Truth hurts EOM Kurska Jul 2016 #111

Islamophobic Underground mwrguy Jul 2016 #112

Yeah, sorry for posting polls and actual hard data EOM Kurska Jul 2016 #122

All of the 'hat religions' are regressive. randome Jul 2016 #114

In case anyone is wondering, here's the reason the OP started this thread: Ken Burch Jul 2016 #115

its all a conspiracy!!! ericson00 Jul 2016 #119

Not a conspiracy...an agenda...a bigoted agenda... Ken Burch Jul 2016 #176

Ah, thought I'd seen this before somewhere fairly recently n/t TubbersUK Jul 2016 #132

DU loves extreme right wingers Democat Jul 2016 #117

well said; and its sad and makes progressives look like jokes ericson00 Jul 2016 #118

represents the thinking of too many on DU Angel Martin Jul 2016 #152

I just googled Dixon Diaz - the author of that cartoon TubbersUK Jul 2016 #158

Poignant ericson00 Jul 2016 #175

Orientalism is alive and well ck4829 Jul 2016 #120

Edward Said was anti-American and an apologist for terror ericson00 Jul 2016 #128

But Islam is our best weapon against Christianity here at home. ileus Jul 2016 #121

Please tell me ur being sarcastic; ericson00 Jul 2016 #127

You should be embarrassed by that leftynyc Jul 2016 #136

for a second, I thought he was being satirical; ericson00 Jul 2016 #140

Death penalty for leaving? It's like the East Germany of religions. modem77 Jul 2016 #125

I was looking at your maps Uponthegears Jul 2016 #137

no you couldn't because its not nearly as uniform red, and ericson00 Jul 2016 #138

You've managed to entirely miss the point Kurska Jul 2016 #139

Oh no, I've got the point entirely Uponthegears Jul 2016 #149

Right as a gay man there is no way I'm concerned about the plight of gay people in those countries Kurska Jul 2016 #224

If you keep building straw men Uponthegears Jul 2016 #233

It seems to me that Islam was largely ignored until 1979 when the Iranians no_hypocrisy Jul 2016 #155

Nice to see straight up religious bigotry rjsquirrel Jul 2016 #156

Oh please. Islam is damned deserving of the criticism it gets. n/t backscatter712 Jul 2016 #165

Oh please rjsquirrel Jul 2016 #167

Ask yourself why leftynyc Jul 2016 #172

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me and others romanic Jul 2016 #166

Eleven Things Women in Saudi Arabia Can't Do: backscatter712 Jul 2016 #168

The parroting of right-wing tropes about Islam on DU is a curious thing YoungDemCA Jul 2016 #171

If the shoe fits... backscatter712 Jul 2016 #174

What an amusing but wrong post Gothmog Jul 2016 #178

Is there an 'Islamic underground' that tries to change these beliefs that gays should be killed? randome Jul 2016 #182

The ultra-orthodox has a tremendous amount of influence in Israel Gothmog Jul 2016 #185

The ultra-orthodoxy of just about every religion should be condemned. randome Jul 2016 #187

Only because the second orthodoxy does not as yet have the power to do so. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #190

Bleh. I did not know that. randome Jul 2016 #197

There actually are LGBTQ activists in a lot of Arab/Muslim countries. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #188

The abolition of a belief is a non-starter. randome Jul 2016 #208

Ok. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #219

It won't happen from without, I'm sure we agree on that. randome Jul 2016 #229

So sit on our hands and pretend it isn't happening Kurska Jul 2016 #239

No. Support those who work for secularism and tolerance in those countries. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #241

I really don't think you understand we're in agreement on some parts Kurska Jul 2016 #242

What makes me suspicious is that you've posted these inflammatory graphics Ken Burch Jul 2016 #243

Tribalism predates any religion Kurska Jul 2016 #244

Thank you for that post. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #189

Except the overwhelming support for ultra-orthodox like positions in the Muslim world. Kurska Jul 2016 #218

But Kurska, you could replace Islam with most other religions and the statement would still be true KamaAina Jul 2016 #192

All too true - sadly. TubbersUK Jul 2016 #194

Anyone who does not call out all the religions that push bigotry is parroting the right wing. Bluenorthwest Jul 2016 #196

Yes, single out the bigots. Absolutely. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #201

Because it is true of most religions, but saying it of Islam is offensive here. Kurska Jul 2016 #216

Harping on Islam exclusively is offensive. KamaAina Jul 2016 #234

How bout not criticizng Islam at all, while one attacks ever other organized religion. Kurska Jul 2016 #236

Not surprisingly, the OP is written by a supporter of oppression and aggressive wars against Muslims cpwm17 Jul 2016 #198

you've just demonstrated one of the sad reasons too many ericson00 Jul 2016 #200

Not "hatred of Israel"...justified anger at the oppression of Palestinians. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #202

why does no other religious group around the world take such extreme offense ericson00 Jul 2016 #207

Support for atrocities is not a liberal value. cpwm17 Jul 2016 #203

Please do not attempt to introduce reality into this thread. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #205

1) How many nuclear devices have been used by a majority Muslim country? guillaumeb Jul 2016 #204

who started the slave trade in Africa? Which country was the last to formally abolish slavery? ericson00 Jul 2016 #209

I am waiting for the answers to my questions. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #212

Does any of that matter to people stoned to death for loving the 'wrong' person? randome Jul 2016 #210

Which does not erase what is said here. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #215

If a woman in a western country wants to walk away from a religion or a marriage, she can. randome Jul 2016 #217

Unless the woman is beaten or killed in the attempt. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #221

I agree, religion is not the problem. Culture is. Killing for minor offenses is codified in law. randome Jul 2016 #227

100% agreed. Well, 99%. guillaumeb Jul 2016 #228

It's ALWAYS more complicated than at first glance, isn't it? randome Jul 2016 #230

I Thought The Era of Evangalizing the Globe On the Road Jul 2016 #213

As a rule, I have a great dislike philosophically for all of the Abrahamic religions. MohRokTah Jul 2016 #214

Thank you for that post. n/t. Ken Burch Jul 2016 #231

I'm gonna guess you don't know a majority of Muslims in the world and so struggle4progress Jul 2016 #223

Who does? That is why opinion polling is useful. Kurska Jul 2016 #225

I'm gonna guess you don't know a majority of Republicans in the world and so Democat Jul 2016 #245