General Discussion

Orrex

(67,222 posts)

118. Well...

Wed Jul 20, 2016, 07:58 AM

Jul 2016

"By and large I do not find DU's gun advocates to be interested in serious discussions of gun control."

But you think that dick-joke enthusiasts are interest in said serious discussions?

Yes I do, but the dick jokes are a response to gun advocates' long history of derailing serious discussion for the sake of focusing on irrelevant minutiae. Further, gun advocates dismiss calls for sensible restrictions unless those restrictions are put forth by gun advocates. Therefore, when it becomes clear that gun advocates are not interested in discussion but are concerned only (or primarily) with protecting their precious guns, then a dick joke is not an unreasonable response to that unreasonable stubbornness.

I accept that you yourself do not do this, but you're not the only participant in the discussion.

Tell me how precise the rest of the Constitution is. Moving from the general principles of the Constitution to specifics codified into laws has led to thousands upon thousand of pages of legislation and regulations. This is the way our government was set up. Of course you agree with me that laws should not be vague!

Well, that's kind of the point. At the top end, the law can be and should be vague, to be defined by subordinate laws. Let's draft a Constitutional amendment defining "arms" as single-action firearms with a maximum capacity of 10 rounds. Nice and general, and subsequent laws can work to specify the particulars.

My point is that great precision is not needed to get the process started.

However, if one is proposing to ban certain firearms, one should be specific.

That's exactly why I think that firearm-specific bans are futile.

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Here's a gun question: [View all] Exilednight Jul 2016 OP

First "define assault rifle" Logical Jul 2016 #1

I put an example in my question. Exilednight Jul 2016 #2

No you didn't, you made an inaccurate assumption. cleanhippie Jul 2016 #43

Here is a better "REAL GOOD" gun answer, w/ images and a short movie Jeffersons Ghost Jul 2016 #112

Wikipedia definition. B Calm Jul 2016 #71

What does "assault rifle" Even mean? Logical Jul 2016 #3

To many who defend the 2nd to the bitter end it supposedly Exilednight Jul 2016 #4

When has it meant anything differently? hack89 Jul 2016 #72

That's my question. When did it to come to strictly mean Exilednight Jul 2016 #75

I simply think it is the only definition that has ever been used hack89 Jul 2016 #76

So you are basing that definition on what you believe? Exilednight Jul 2016 #79

I can't find any examples of semi-auto rifles commonly being called assault rifles. hack89 Jul 2016 #83

Anything that can fire off more than two bullets without reloading. nt madinmaryland Jul 2016 #69

So a cap and ball revolver is an assault rifle? Travis_0004 Jul 2016 #81

Yes. nt madinmaryland Jul 2016 #82

So "assault rifles" were used in the Civil War? Straw Man Jul 2016 #100

Isn't it a good idea anoNY42 Jul 2016 #5

there is. one is called full-auto, the other is called semi-auto. Exilednight Jul 2016 #6

Are you objecting to the term "assault rifle" as it is commonly defined? anoNY42 Jul 2016 #18

I'm asking a question. everyone is trying to argue about Exilednight Jul 2016 #37

It is generally understood that "assault" rifles (can) opperate in "fully automatic" mode. jonno99 Jul 2016 #7

I know the difference, but that doesn't answer the question. Exilednight Jul 2016 #10

See #8 for a better answer than mine... jonno99 Jul 2016 #12

except that with mods like bump fire kits drray23 Jul 2016 #133

No. beevul Jul 2016 #143

It never was. Your question is actually reversed Statistical Jul 2016 #8

Legally it was defines to include the AR-15. Exilednight Jul 2016 #11

What is the "it" in your response? anoNY42 Jul 2016 #20

No it wasn't. Statistical Jul 2016 #21

No, you're confusing the term "assault rifle" with "assault weapon" aikoaiko Jul 2016 #56

No. you're confusing legally defined with legislatively defined. Exilednight Jul 2016 #59

Both were defined legislatively. beevul Jul 2016 #61

That's an interesting distinction. I'm fairly certain that legislative definitions supercede judges' aikoaiko Jul 2016 #64

My father was. He was first a corporate lawyer, made a ton of Exilednight Jul 2016 #66

Even if the judge's definition differs from a legislative definition? aikoaiko Jul 2016 #67

Yes. But it can change again if it's overturned by a higher court Exilednight Jul 2016 #73

Do we know of a judge determining that an AR15 is an 'assault rifle'? aikoaiko Jul 2016 #96

Used as a legal definition by whom? hardluck Jul 2016 #124

By anyone attempting to use legal language as part of their argument. Exilednight Jul 2016 #129

Been struggling with a response hardluck Jul 2016 #145

There are many possible ways. Exilednight Jul 2016 #146

"when did people decide an AR-15 WAS an assault rifle." - the REAL answer? When they saw jonno99 Jul 2016 #17

That's not what I asked, but thanks for playing. Exilednight Jul 2016 #38

You've been given lots of answers, yet dismiss them all because it's not what you want to hear. cleanhippie Jul 2016 #45

I'm not looking for a definition, I am looking for the historical Exilednight Jul 2016 #52

This message was self-deleted by its author jmg257 Jul 2016 #54

Neutral historical perspective. jmg257 Jul 2016 #55

Clarification. Straw Man Jul 2016 #105

Oh boy! SheriffBob Jul 2016 #9

Well, it is Guns Discussion -- the preferred site among three (3) for controller/banners. Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #36

Perhaps this might help. ... spin Jul 2016 #13

"Assault Rifle" is a military term referring to specific characteristics of a firearm. Glassunion Jul 2016 #14

Who and when, that is all I am asking. Exilednight Jul 2016 #39

Who: U.S. Army When: November 1970 Glassunion Jul 2016 #41

Link? Exilednight Jul 2016 #42

Not sure if it's the earliest, but it's the earliest in print I could find. Glassunion Jul 2016 #47

Good stuff - thanks! nt jmg257 Jul 2016 #110

It was a desperate PR move by the gun industry and gun rights people. Paladin Jul 2016 #15

Really? First ad for the Colt AR-15. Ikonoklast Jul 2016 #107

See my reference to the MediaMatters article, down-thread. (nt) Paladin Jul 2016 #119

Hitler, when he coined the term "storm (assault) rifle" in 1944. jmg257 Jul 2016 #16

Ruh roh, the gun nomenclature circle jerk begins. Darb Jul 2016 #19

Ah homophobic terms sarisataka Jul 2016 #22

So............. Darb Jul 2016 #24

Don't worry sarisataka Jul 2016 #28

I think he was talking about "reach around"... anoNY42 Jul 2016 #29

Strictly men? Darb Jul 2016 #30

Well, if you want to get technical... anoNY42 Jul 2016 #31

Well, there ya go. Darb Jul 2016 #33

Was it Potter Stewart who said anoNY42 Jul 2016 #34

A magazine is something that holds ammunition and is then inserted into a weapon Separation Jul 2016 #147

Merci beaucoup. Darb Jul 2016 #149

For hunting, in most states its 5. Separation Jul 2016 #151

When I was a kid, we had to plug down to 3. Darb Jul 2016 #152

You are correct! I misspoke. Separation Jul 2016 #153

Important fact to keep in mind: Paladin Jul 2016 #154

Darb, if you are looking for a non-homophobic metaphor of this nature (caution)... Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #44

I best cut my losses. Darb Jul 2016 #46

He's asking a question about nomenclature. Adrahil Jul 2016 #127

The Department of the Treasury, BATF workgroup in 1989, concurred... jmg257 Jul 2016 #23

That is a useful reference. Thank you. aikoaiko Jul 2016 #57

Because the gunners define "assault rifle" as fully automatic, even though common use includes Hoyt Jul 2016 #25

So does ATF. beevul Jul 2016 #63

It just proves you are WRONG and your attempts to promote more gunz are based on deceit. Hoyt Jul 2016 #65

The Germans during WWII Matrosov Jul 2016 #26

Always nice to see pro-gun militants showing such regard for Nazi Germany after all these years.(nt) Paladin Jul 2016 #131

Is that what this is all about? Straw Man Jul 2016 #136

Some times you people just ask for it. Paladin Jul 2016 #138

Ask for what? Straw Man Jul 2016 #140

How many people has Ted Nugent had killed while making records? friendly_iconoclast Jul 2016 #142

Misfire! beevul Jul 2016 #144

The AR-15 does not fit the definition. GOLGO 13 Jul 2016 #27

sure that's an answer to some question, bit not what I asked. Exilednight Jul 2016 #40

You just opened yourself up for endless bullshit doc03 Jul 2016 #32

AR-15 is a shitty home defense weapon. Anyone who says otherwise Separation Jul 2016 #148

A round from an AR-15 will only go through 4 walls if you live in a grass shack... friendly_iconoclast Jul 2016 #155

The ATF? ileus Jul 2016 #35

The most important thing is that we not offend gun advocates Orrex Jul 2016 #48

Actually, the most important "thing" is truth, not sloppy-handed deception. Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #50

It's just common courtesy on a website where everyone is working towards the same goal... anoNY42 Jul 2016 #51

Yeah, gun advocates always say that. Orrex Jul 2016 #60

The AR-15 is hardly obscure anoNY42 Jul 2016 #113

Nonsense. All of it. Orrex Jul 2016 #114

Nobody here is really interested in serious discussions of gun control hack89 Jul 2016 #116

A serious discussion of your comments anoNY42 Jul 2016 #117

Well... Orrex Jul 2016 #118

Well anoNY42 Jul 2016 #120

For the most part, it appears that we agree. Orrex Jul 2016 #122

Precision. Straw Man Jul 2016 #139

Or at least make an attempt to be accurate and educated on the subject. You know, as would be... Marengo Jul 2016 #53

Why do you feel the need to be offensive? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2016 #121

You don't seem to understand, so here is the most salient quote on his matter... Eleanors38 Jul 2016 #49

Exilednight, here's some further information on the subject: Paladin Jul 2016 #58

I'm curious to know why this matters? TeddyR Jul 2016 #62

To some it does matter. What I really want to know is who actually Exilednight Jul 2016 #68

Fair enough TeddyR Jul 2016 #77

Lots of people have answered - you simply refuse to listen. hack89 Jul 2016 #78

No one has answered it. on what authority are we accepting this definition? Exilednight Jul 2016 #80

You were shown the legal definitions that the US government uses to classify rifles. hack89 Jul 2016 #84

Legal definitions aren't the cornerstone of English. There are reasons Exilednight Jul 2016 #88

You were shown the ATF definition hack89 Jul 2016 #85

The ATF decided? They were the first to use the assault rifle? Exilednight Jul 2016 #89

No - they ruled what was NOT an assault rifle hack89 Jul 2016 #90

Then that doesn't answer the question. Exilednight Jul 2016 #93

Why is this so important? hack89 Jul 2016 #97

It is the English translation of Sturmgewehr hack89 Jul 2016 #86

So Hitler invented it as a propaganda term. Exilednight Jul 2016 #91

You were told that several times. nt hack89 Jul 2016 #92

"Assault rifle" was originally a military term. Straw Man Jul 2016 #70

But who gave us the definition, and when? Exilednight Jul 2016 #94

Nobody "gave" the "definition." Straw Man Jul 2016 #99

The Germans, as has been pointed out Matrosov Jul 2016 #103

This message was self-deleted by its author jmg257 Jul 2016 #108

There used to be a real... deathrind Jul 2016 #74

My AR15 is a counter-assault rifle. ileus Jul 2016 #87

My Kitchen Aid is a Counter-Top mixer Glassunion Jul 2016 #95

Dealing with them MyNameGoesHere Jul 2016 #98

Who are you referring to? TeddyR Jul 2016 #101

U.S. Military handbook for the M16 Assault rifle. Agnosticsherbet Jul 2016 #102

That is not a US military manual. Straw Man Jul 2016 #104

Yeah I was going to say same thing. The Army is kinda boring and just calls it the "M-16 Rifle". Statistical Jul 2016 #106

The Army should be the last ones to define anything. How many trucks Exilednight Jul 2016 #115

The Fedorov Avtomat would have been the first, though the Sturmgewehr 44 or StG 44 gave them Agnosticsherbet Jul 2016 #123

"Used by everyone"? N/T beevul Jul 2016 #125

More on Hitler, and the US Military Intelligence Service use of "assault rifle" in 1945 jmg257 Jul 2016 #109

It's interesting to see this downplaying the rifle. Adrahil Jul 2016 #126

If you're ever interested in the internecine squabbling on the issue DonP Jul 2016 #128

I actually own a Spencer. Adrahil Jul 2016 #132

I'm looking into a decent Sharps now DonP Jul 2016 #134

Yeah, a decent Sharps = $$$$$ Adrahil Jul 2016 #135

Yeah, it's definitely a "saving up for" project DonP Jul 2016 #137

I have another question ... Straw Man Jul 2016 #111

Feel free to start your own thread. Exilednight Jul 2016 #130

This message was self-deleted by its author jmg257 Jul 2016 #141

One thing for sure though Separation Jul 2016 #150