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Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
117. Please do not apologize for the disjointed C&P
Sun Jul 31, 2016, 11:15 AM
Jul 2016

I appreciate the fact that you included (at least the DOJ's) description of (some of) the facts, instead of the more popular straw man approach of saying "Obama's DOJ cleared Wilson, you must hate Obama."

(Aside, the investigation was conducted primarily by a police which the DOJ found later to have engaged in systemic discrimination against people of color. The grand jury presentation was structured to favor Wilson (e.g., This was not a "grand jury investigation" where the grand jury determined which witnesses would be subpoenaed etc., A undeniably pro-cop DA allowed Wilson to tell his version of the story as called witnesses favorable to Brown. Witnesses hostile to Wilson were cross-examined aggressively by prosecutors. In a normal grand jury, the prosecution calls ONLY those witnesses which are needed to establish the elements of the offense and the grand jury decides only whether the evidence against the accused -- standing alone and without hearing any of the defense evidence AND with giving that evidence every reasonable inference pointing toward guilt -- is sufficient to establish the elements of an offense.). The FBI investigation was conducted by career agents with criminal investigation backgrounds, who are no less biased than any other cop, and consisted almost entirely of interviews of witnesses who had already been questioned by a police force which was trying to make sure Wilson was never charged. Sanitizing this process by whining in essence "Obama and Holder agreed" is the refuge of a person who cannot or will not discuss facts.)

Even though they don't show the full extent of the manner in which the racist Ferguson police force led this whitewash, the excerpts you included do illustrate much of what I have been trying to explain. Rather than pull out the actual statements and transcripts, which are still available online, I will rely on the descriptions in the report.

First, let's look at who Witness 122 and 130 were. The were the two guys working in close proximity to the scene who had a conversation with Brown prior to his death. According to your excerpt from the DOJ report, both issued one page statements on the advice of their employer. Witness 122 also gave an anonymous interview to a media outlet. As the news article explained, these statements basically describe a murder.

I want to point out something right here and let you keep it in the back of your mind. Witness 122 was questioned FOUR TIMES (6 total statements minus the written statement for his employer and the media interview) by the Ferguson cops AND then attacked by the DA when he testified before the grand jury. As for the manner in which he was questioned, here's an interesting tidbit from your excerpt : "After learning about that autopsy, he realized that Brown was not shot in the back and admittedly changed his account." So after 122 gives his statement (which, btw, said that Brown was shot BOTH in the back and in the front), the cops go back to him and confront him with the autopsy and make him give another statement to "explain" why Brown wasn't hit in the back.

Now let's go to why the DOJ says 122 is "incredible."

First, they say it's because he changes his story to eliminate the "shot in the back ' part. Is there another way to explain this other than that "he's a liar and/or that ALL aspects of his story are unreliable?" Well, yes there is. All of the rounds missing from Wilson's weapons are not accounted for by looking at Wilson's vehicle and Brown's body. In other words, Wilson missed with some of the shots he fired at Brown. Unless you were bound and determined to discount the "hands up" part of the story, wouldn't it be equally, if not more, reasonable to conclude that Witness 122 saw the shots being fired and Brown stop running and naturally assumed that he had been hit? Does this make the "hands up" part incredible? In fact, wouldn't that have almost been a logical assumption?

Next, they say it's because Witness 122 says he hears Brown say "Okay, Okay, Okay" and other witnesses don't. Everyone who claimed to have seen this incident did not have the same perspective. All were not (because none of us do) paying attention to the same things. The other witnesses did not all observe the incident in exactly the same way either. In fact, the "bull rush" witness who gets cited over and over again by Brown haters was the ONLY witness who claimed that. Just because others did not observe this aspect of the incident makes 122 totally incredible how (unless you are just looking for a reason)?

Next, they say it's because 122 said he was "dead on his feet? before he turned around and the fatal injury was undoubtedly inflicted as Brown was leaning forward. Isn't the most logical, in fact the obvious, explanation for this "inconsistency with the physical evidence" that A CONSTRUCTION WORKER ISN'T A DOCTOR and that he was simply wrong and Brown was not fatally wounded before he turned around, but instead that 122 merely saw him moving in an unnatural manner (as one might when in fear for their life and facing a barrage of gunfire). If that were the case, isn't it equally possible that the fatal shot was fired as Brown fell/stumbled forward (a fact described by all witnesses other than the "bull rush" witness, and Wilson). Unless you are looking for a reason to claim the "hands up" never happened, why would you conclude that 122 was qualified to make an assessment of Brown's viability instead of concluding that his medical opinion was an assumption and that the important part of his story was that Brown stopped, turned, and put his hands up?

Next, they say it was because of the "three cops" story. Here, it's important to note that this wasn't in his original statement, but was something he said much later after being repeatedly confronted by the cops and cajoled by the community. Would it have also been reasonable to conclude that 122 conflated his observations of the original incident with his observations of the aftermath when Brown's body was left lying in the street for hours? If not, would it also have been reasonable to conclude that his later statements had been influenced by the talk in the community, whereas his earlier statements were not? What, if anything, makes his ORIGINAL statement "incredible" to anyone without an agenda?

Finally, they say it's incredible because, after being repeatedly questioned by racist cops, after having his credibility challenged by racist cops, he recants his original story and makes a statement saying he actually around the corner? Do you believe that cops get the truth by interrogating people of color in the manner 122 was interrogated? Do you blame 122 for finally giving up after 4 interrogations and telling the cops what they wanted to hear?

I ask all these questions for a simple reason. I agree that a person COULD find 122 incredible for all the reasons under the circumstances described in the DOJ report, particularly if they wanted to believe that Michael Brown was not murdered in cold blood after surrendering. They, however, COULD have concluded otherwise. THAT, however, SHOULD HAVE BEEN a determination made by a jury at a trial.

There is one other thing, however, that was not mentioned in the DOJ report. Something that happened before 122 even gave his original statement. Something that happened even before 122 heard the stories out in the community. Something that happened even before 122 was questioned over and over by racist cops looking to clear their fellow officer. Something that the law considers so inherently reliable that it is admissible at trial even if the witness does not take the stand. It's known as an "excited utterance." It's a statement made about a cotemporaneous event under circumstances where the declarant was under stress.

Witness 122 was one of the two men who were videotaped on someone's cell phone AS MICHAEL BROWN WAS BEING KILLED. In it, they are seen pointing at the scene as the Wilson is putting a bullet in the top of the unarmed Brown's head and screaming that he had his hands up and was trying to surrender.

All the incidents the DOJ throws out there for why 122 MIGHT not be believable do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to affect the credibility of what 122 said as he observed the end of Michael Brown's life. That video should give anyone who isn't out to excuse Wilson and deny the "hands up" scenario pause before they accept the career DOJ/FBI willingness to interpret every possible problem with 122's statements against the credibility of the core of his story.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

You are correct. mainstreetonce Jul 2016 #1
The Brown shooting isn't a good example of unnecessary police violence... pipoman Jul 2016 #2
I'm saying that wiki is trying to edit history Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #3
"Wikipedia" didn't write it, users did... JHB Aug 2016 #126
Blasting an unarmed person 12 times seems pretty representative to me of police violence brush Jul 2016 #5
See 9 pipoman Jul 2016 #10
Look up what unarmed means. Also while you're at it look up how the cop in North Charleston also . . brush Jul 2016 #12
When someone charges a cop who is armed pipoman Jul 2016 #13
Then maybe police ought to stop carrying then Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #17
Or maybe you shouldn't side with people who try to kill cops. pipoman Jul 2016 #25
You believe the cop. I don't. We've all seen videos that have proved many cops lie to cover. . . brush Jul 2016 #61
He didn't seem to have a great track record of quality decision making... TipTok Jul 2016 #62
The same guy who would do this.... pipoman Jul 2016 #63
Wilson knew nothing of the convenience store incident when he killed Brown brush Jul 2016 #66
Obama's Justice Department says otherwise. pipoman Jul 2016 #70
The white guy construction workers said he had his hands up and cop kept shooting brush Jul 2016 #71
"Nobody"...wrong pipoman Jul 2016 #73
Of course you would take the word of the cop. He's the only one who said Brown charged into . . . brush Jul 2016 #95
I take the word of the Justice Department pipoman Jul 2016 #96
"Lot of lying was going on to that grand jury" pintobean Jul 2016 #100
Witnesses vs. Whitewash Uponthegears Jul 2016 #105
From the DOJ report pintobean Jul 2016 #116
Please do not apologize for the disjointed C&P Uponthegears Jul 2016 #117
tl;dr dc pintobean Jul 2016 #118
Facts are like that Uponthegears Jul 2016 #119
You don't offend me. pintobean Jul 2016 #120
There is only one reason people Uponthegears Jul 2016 #121
It was a coded message pintobean Jul 2016 #122
Oh my Uponthegears Jul 2016 #123
Lol. No, I'm done. pintobean Jul 2016 #124
Well said, well reasoned post. The cop apologists here probably won't give it credence . . . brush Aug 2016 #131
100% rgbecker Aug 2016 #152
The autopsy showed that his hands were down Travis_0004 Aug 2016 #127
The autopsy doesn't, and can't possibly show that his hands were down . . . brush Aug 2016 #132
True, it only showed that his hands were down when he was shot. Travis_0004 Aug 2016 #146
Which shots? Uponthegears Aug 2016 #147
Yes, shot while UNAMRED. brush Aug 2016 #149
Yep Uponthegears Aug 2016 #150
Felon?....do go on... pkdu Jul 2016 #77
He did charge towards Wilson. Its in the DOJ investigation. n/t Waldorf Jul 2016 #30
And you believe someone charged into 12 live bullets? brush Jul 2016 #67
Oh do go on, is it cause he was one of those hepped up super black men the police fear so much? CBGLuthier Jul 2016 #6
He charged a cop... pipoman Jul 2016 #9
The murderer knew nothing of the robbery at the time of the confrontation Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #16
No they aren't. So you think a badge = superman? pipoman Jul 2016 #23
Seems rather obvious you don't know what police brutality is. Rex Jul 2016 #24
Tell me after you have copped for 5 minutes. pipoman Jul 2016 #27
Wrong. Rex Jul 2016 #31
Every cop is trained to protect their weapon with deadly force. pipoman Jul 2016 #34
We've seen many examples of white people doing to cops things that would have gotten a black man kil Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #41
Twice as many whites are shot by police than blacks...fact. pipoman Jul 2016 #48
Um , wouldn't use that "fact" even if the math is correct as there is an inherent problem in it pkdu Jul 2016 #78
It is about the same rate as commission of murder by race... pipoman Jul 2016 #83
You seem to having trouble making a point? or are you just throwing out a list of unrelated data pkdu Jul 2016 #88
I can't help it if you can't understand...it really is simple. pipoman Jul 2016 #91
Dylan Roof was calmly brought into police custody after killing nine people during a prayer service Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #158
My purpose for posting this was in no way about police Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #29
This case was the proverbial straw on the issue of unpunished pipoman Jul 2016 #35
The Brown case was not legitimate use of force. brush Jul 2016 #68
This guy would.... pipoman Jul 2016 #69
The guy was unarmed. The cop didn't know about the convenience store incident yet still gunned . . . brush Jul 2016 #72
"Unarmed" no...he was armed with legs and arms and a desire to disarm a cop pipoman Jul 2016 #74
There you go leaving out important details. brush Jul 2016 #94
So you believe his criminal counterpart over Obama's Justice Department....got it pipoman Jul 2016 #97
Let's see, eyewitness vs. Uponthegears Jul 2016 #102
Eyewitness = most unreliable form of evidence pipoman Jul 2016 #107
Okay, so if eyewitnesses are incredible Uponthegears Jul 2016 #108
No, my preference is body cams on every officer.... pipoman Jul 2016 #110
Much like Trayvon was "armed" with the sidewalk Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #141
Again, false; the dispatcher alerted the "seating in progress", with descriptions, well before (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #56
See post 20 below...the Justice Department disagrees and actually has evidence to the contrary pipoman Jul 2016 #92
I think you meant to post this to someone else, because you're agreeing with me LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #93
..... pipoman Jul 2016 #98
I know exactly how you feel (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #99
Why would anyone charge a cop who has his gun drawn? killbotfactory Jul 2016 #84
Why would anyone bully and terrorize a store owner over a box of blunts? pipoman Jul 2016 #85
because a couple dollars worth of blunts are trivial compared to your life? nt killbotfactory Jul 2016 #86
No...poor judgement...many times....in rapid succession... pipoman Jul 2016 #87
So he was running away, stopped, turned around and charged at a cop with a gun drawn? killbotfactory Jul 2016 #89
Read the Obama DoJ report...it is comprehensive... pipoman Jul 2016 #90
Fuck that piece of shit murdering cop. JTFrog Jul 2016 #101
Barack Obama's Justice Department pipoman Jul 2016 #104
Fuck that piece of shit murdering pig. JTFrog Jul 2016 #113
Funny that we trusted them when they cleared Hillary ripcord Aug 2016 #144
Thanks for the revealing post Uponthegears Aug 2016 #148
No, I don't think you're wrong, I've read that more than once, too. marble falls Jul 2016 #4
Allow me to propose another scenario Uponthegears Jul 2016 #7
(no one in their right mind is claiming that Wilson knew about the convenience store incident until Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #14
Just amazing Uponthegears Jul 2016 #18
On the contrary...the JD investigation reported Wilson was aware of the robbery BEFORE he stopped True Earthling Jul 2016 #26
The Justice Department disagrees with you. hack89 Jul 2016 #32
The DOJ is only right when they agree with us ripcord Jul 2016 #37
That's one cute and clever reply Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #58
The Wiki page references the Justice Department investigation. hack89 Jul 2016 #59
False; the dispatcher alerted the "steaing in progress" at 11:53 am (nt) LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #55
Wikipedia is open to anyone to edit. malthaussen Jul 2016 #8
I know so I registered as an editor and changed it Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #15
^5 Uponthegears Jul 2016 #19
It'll be reverted. Igel Jul 2016 #20
Which is why wiki cannot ever be a reliable source Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #21
The sources cited can be mythology Jul 2016 #64
Not how I remember it either. gollygee Jul 2016 #11
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2016 #125
Did you read the citations noted in the Wiki? True Earthling Jul 2016 #22
If he knew about the robbery he would have tried to arrest them Them instead of just telling them to Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #40
Ask the Obama JD...are you pretending they didn't investigate? pipoman Jul 2016 #47
+1 Vattel Aug 2016 #159
The same doj that couldn't find anything actionable with the fraud committed by the banksters Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #43
Wiki reflects what the Justice Department investigation found. hack89 Jul 2016 #28
If he knew about the robbery he would have tried to arrest them Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #39
I suggest you find and read the Justice Department investigation hack89 Jul 2016 #46
Oh I'm sure what they call the facts back up the conclusion Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #50
So President Obama directed the Attorney General to cover up a murder? hack89 Jul 2016 #54
The lengths we will go PrideofJefferson Jul 2016 #80
Opinion sites are worth as much as the people posting their opinions about events. Rex Jul 2016 #33
You don't trust the Obama Justice Department? pipoman Jul 2016 #36
Is Wiki the JD? Rex Jul 2016 #38
Almost the entire wiki entry is from the Obama JD report... pipoman Jul 2016 #44
The Obama doj let the banksters walk, trust only goes so far. Strangely the u.s. Couldn't find Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #42
Other countries were investigating Ferguson? pipoman Jul 2016 #45
What do you think Ohioblue22 Jul 2016 #49
That they weren't. Throd Jul 2016 #57
What do I think? I think idiots and fools think they did... pipoman Jul 2016 #60
The information in the OP is consistent with the Justice Department findings. Trust Buster Jul 2016 #51
Because you remember the media and activist narrative that spread wildly right after Lee-Lee Jul 2016 #52
I've always thought this particular case didn't deserve as much attention as some others. Lil Missy Jul 2016 #53
More context loyalsister Jul 2016 #65
You were listening to the same hype that sparked the awful riots. Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2016 #75
You are NOT wrong. You are 100 percent correct. BlueCaliDem Jul 2016 #76
Message to the Brown haters Uponthegears Jul 2016 #79
I am trying to understand PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #129
how could you remember what happened? Enrique Jul 2016 #81
Exactly; one of the points of the BLM manifesto is "Independently investigate and prosecute police LongtimeAZDem Jul 2016 #109
A grand jury investigation TeddyR Jul 2016 #82
Ackkk this post is infested by Fuzz Boxerfan Jul 2016 #103
It seems to be the opposite effect imo, people are reading what they type and realize Rex Jul 2016 #112
It's fucking disgusting and pathetic. nt JTFrog Jul 2016 #114
You are correct. But whatever happened, there was no excuse to shoot Brown that many times. Hoyt Jul 2016 #106
Well it doesn't help that the city PD was holding the entire population of POC economic Rex Jul 2016 #111
From 'minimum force' to 'Unleashing the Warrior Spirit' kristopher Jul 2016 #115
All well and good, but shooting 12 times at an unarmed, fleeing man . . . brush Aug 2016 #133
You may have missed my point. kristopher Aug 2016 #134
Sorry if I did, but what was it? brush Aug 2016 #135
I don't think I can make it more clear. kristopher Aug 2016 #136
Benghazi! PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #128
Maybe because your seeing what you want to see Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #137
I wasn't there PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #142
I wasn't there. That's cute Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #143
What's cute about that PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #145
No I wasn't there either sorry you don't understand my point Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #155
My goodness PrideofJefferson Aug 2016 #157
you lost that one Skittles Aug 2016 #151
Lost? I didn't realize this was a game Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #153
LOLOL Skittles Aug 2016 #154
Ok you win?I congrats Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #156
Wiki article, for reference steve2470 Aug 2016 #130
While I thank you for the heads-up on that was it really that hard to find? Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #138
no, just a courtesy request, that's all nt steve2470 Aug 2016 #139
Ok thanks... I'll keep it in mind Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #140
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