General Discussion

MADem

(135,425 posts)

107. As I said elsewhere in this thread, they could easily achieve the goal of "modesty" without

Thu Aug 25, 2016, 12:49 AM

Aug 2016

appearing to be wearing an obviously religiously-related garment. The French are fond of style, and most Islamic clothing lacks that--it's like they design the stuff so it will look as ugly as possible. Of course, the goal of the clothing is to "erase" the woman from view as much as possible--with the chaderi/chador/burqa, the idea is to turn the woman into a shadow. Really.

This isn't about fear, though--it's about aggressively holding the line on a cultural imperative that the political leadership, at least for now, believes defines them as a nation (and the courts have backed them up on this). Religious clothing is an affront to their secular natures.

You want to live in France? You'd better behave like you are French--that's what they're saying.

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I just cannot see forcing a woman to reveal a part of her body she is not comfortable revealing as [View all] redgreenandblue Aug 2016 OP

it is not enlightened. it is highly bigoted. La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2016 #1

And offensive Dorian Gray Aug 2016 #72

honestly it's just mind boggling that liberals can support this. La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2016 #73

It's terrible. Brickbat Aug 2016 #2

Liberal Isolationists and progressives are too often conflated and look nothing like one and other. NCTraveler Aug 2016 #3

I agree. Except for the face for identification purposes, Ilsa Aug 2016 #4

They could wear yoga pants, a large floppy hat and a long t shirt and get the same effect. MADem Aug 2016 #98

Thanks for the perspective. Ilsa Aug 2016 #130

Only it the yoga pants coordinate well. goldent Aug 2016 #172

Well of course--the French OWN style!!! nt MADem Aug 2016 #175

They could also wear a jazzy caftan or a nifty beach robe with that floppy hat. MADem Aug 2016 #174

I agree radical noodle Aug 2016 #5

So we have no business telling the French kiva Aug 2016 #68

I don't believe the French should ban clothing nor should we radical noodle Aug 2016 #70

They aren't going to take advice from us--or anyone else -- on their culture or their society. MADem Aug 2016 #102

Not going to tell the French how to live. But it still stinks... Eleanors38 Aug 2016 #181

Is this systemic sexual assault or being prudent and responsible packman Aug 2016 #6

4 male officers telling a woman what she can or can't wear? ck4829 Aug 2016 #16

And they're showing their calves! librarylu Aug 2016 #56

Prudent and responsible? jberryhill Aug 2016 #30

How is this 'prudent' or 'responsible'? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #33

Perhaps you missed-- packman Aug 2016 #85

I don't think taking revenge on a religion would be 'prudent' or 'responsible', however muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #114

So How Soon RobinA Aug 2016 #140

About 2,000 yrs. too late packman Aug 2016 #149

She could have left the beach, so she wasn’t really forced. Boudica the Lyoness Aug 2016 #84

I don't think it was France, but individual beaches including Cannes. randome Aug 2016 #7

I am completely against the ban. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2016 #8

Why are pigs anymore filthy than any other animal and you can't clean a pig? Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #9

For one, they eat cow shit. Literally. closeupready Aug 2016 #20

Doesn't it all go into a stomach and then broken down by acid. Ohioblue22 Aug 2016 #34

I don't know, but then why can't people eat crap if we have HCl in our stomachs, too? closeupready Aug 2016 #36

And somehow turn it into bacon. Travis_0004 Aug 2016 #60

Chickens also eat shit n/t snpsmom Aug 2016 #138

Because historically keeping pigs was a good way to get trichinosis. LeftyMom Aug 2016 #66

Misogynistic crap littlemissmartypants Aug 2016 #10

lol ! treestar Aug 2016 #26

France has made it quite clear MicaelS Aug 2016 #11

This makes it sound like they have no problem letting paranoia overwhelm their society though ck4829 Aug 2016 #14

They should be paranoid. After Charlie Hebdoe, the Nice attack, Marr Aug 2016 #77

Giving how France has suffered from MicaelS Aug 2016 #80

THIS eissa Aug 2016 #15

Not trying to thread jack, but just curious. What are their biggest complaints? smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #62

They hate it here eissa Aug 2016 #69

Thank you for filling me in. Very interesting. smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #97

Exactly! eissa Aug 2016 #100

You have my deepest sympathies.... MADem Aug 2016 #103

I Get Where You Are Coming From RobinA Aug 2016 #143

My cajun family was much the same TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2016 #151

That's not better than a state religion treestar Aug 2016 #25

Then why are there crosses on every mountaintop? jberryhill Aug 2016 #31

Actually they have gone after other religions MicaelS Aug 2016 #37

Right, they are a secular country. demosincebirth Aug 2016 #74

That's the law. The practice is quite different jberryhill Aug 2016 #154

I agree with their ban of the burka... awoke_in_2003 Aug 2016 #42

You are aware that in France MicaelS Aug 2016 #48

Are you serious? awoke_in_2003 Aug 2016 #50

Quite serious. n/t MicaelS Aug 2016 #51

Wow - I had no idea so I looked it up! DawgHouse Aug 2016 #58

That's at most pools - not the beach, rivers or lakes jberryhill Aug 2016 #156

First of all, that is simply not true jberryhill Aug 2016 #155

The trump-like factions of muslims migrating to Europe have stated over and over again underahedgerow Aug 2016 #45

I fail to see how wearing a "burquini" is a display of cultural and religious extremism. Chemisse Aug 2016 #65

Think of it this way: If wearing said garment and being modest was so incredibly important underahedgerow Aug 2016 #99

Why didn't she just leave the beach when ordered to by the uniformed representatives of the state? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #119

The "burkini" is not a religious garment anyway jberryhill Aug 2016 #157

The idea that "France" is not inclusive of Muslim women is the problem. LeftyMom Aug 2016 #67

To This Atheist RobinA Aug 2016 #142

DU loves right wing religious extremists Democat Aug 2016 #147

When you deny the bikini you deny all that is France. GOLGO 13 Aug 2016 #12

Since it was named for a U.S. bomb test site, Vive les Etats Unis! JustABozoOnThisBus Aug 2016 #129

Pigs are not actually dirty animals. PoindexterOglethorpe Aug 2016 #13

I know pigs are not dirty. The point is that what meat is edible is entirely subjective. redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #19

Your reasoning is still problematic. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2016 #27

Should conforming to the expectations of your community be punishable? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #35

Ah but is the kilt representing repression of half the world population? No. underahedgerow Aug 2016 #113

So forcing conformity to the socio-religious expectations of the majority of the country is fine muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #117

No, none of those things. What I expect is that if she wants to not wear a headscarf or underahedgerow Aug 2016 #124

OK, so your approach to public freedom is to mind-read what happened back at home muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #127

Yes in fact, I think it's appalling that women are forced by the rules that males invented to cover underahedgerow Aug 2016 #135

No, and I never so much as hinted that it should be. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2016 #183

Yes. But this is just as true for not eating cats. No social conditioning exists in a vacuum. redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #39

Well, you did say that your father avoids pork PoindexterOglethorpe Aug 2016 #49

He considers them dirty. I don't. To each their own. redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #118

Not to mention that pigs are difficult to "herd" and parasites in swine was a real problem for .... A HERETIC I AM Aug 2016 #21

France is an AGGRESSIVELY secular nation. MADem Aug 2016 #17

Maybe, but there is nothing progressive/liberal/enlightened about that. redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #22

There's no simple way to explain this without sounding flippant, and that is not my intent, MADem Aug 2016 #71

This right here sums it all up eissa Aug 2016 #86

It's because the European nations place such stock in their particular cultures and histories. MADem Aug 2016 #96

I sincerely appreciate your explanation of the French.... steve2470 Aug 2016 #171

I have a personal and visceral dislike of the whole concept of hijab, particularly the aggressive MADem Aug 2016 #173

And those who have interacted with women in the mid-east eissa Aug 2016 #178

Identification with the oppressor is quite common. It took Jimmy Carter pardoning Patty Hearst for MADem Aug 2016 #180

Forget it. On DU, progressives OWN muslim women's bodies. closeupready Aug 2016 #18

Burkas are oppression Calculating Aug 2016 #23

Yes, they are eissa Aug 2016 #28

yup Calculating Aug 2016 #32

so are high heels, bras, tight fitting clothing, wearing lipstick etc. Fresh_Start Aug 2016 #38

Those are also stupid and oppressive Calculating Aug 2016 #41

So you'd like to ban ties in public, once it's possible? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #46

Men must wear burkinis. Now. kwassa Aug 2016 #87

Women in America have CHOICE.... that's the difference davidn3600 Aug 2016 #76

So women in France shouldn't have the choice, and that makes things better how? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #120

Look at the picture in #6. The police get the choice of how much to cover up. muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #40

I think they are being very silly treestar Aug 2016 #24

As I said elsewhere in this thread, they could easily achieve the goal of "modesty" without MADem Aug 2016 #107

What about nuns? treestar Aug 2016 #146

Apparently they're different. Maybe because that's their job or they can actually choose to not MADem Aug 2016 #162

The Muslim women living in France are also choosing what to wear treestar Aug 2016 #164

No, no, no. Their husbands or fathers are choosing what they may wear. MADem Aug 2016 #167

See Mormons. Photographer Aug 2016 #29

Since the very idea of a "Burkini" is utterly ridiculous... AlbertCat Aug 2016 #43

+1,000 malaise Aug 2016 #44

Bottom line is that this woman is perfectly free to practice her religious beliefs in her home. underahedgerow Aug 2016 #47

its just crazy we care MFM008 Aug 2016 #52

About a CENTURY ago.....which was long enough, I'd venture! MADem Aug 2016 #109

Exactly what the Taliban do when they punish women who show any parts of their legs or hands lunatica Aug 2016 #53

What if you're trying to save them Calculating Aug 2016 #55

You only make it worse lunatica Aug 2016 #61

Totally agree. FXSTD Aug 2016 #54

American women don't go to work with their breast exposed because Zing Zing Zingbah Aug 2016 #57

I think the analogy is exactly right. Going topless is has rules against it, but many people have redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #115

No, it is not right. Zing Zing Zingbah Aug 2016 #132

No it's exactly wrong Lordquinton Aug 2016 #169

I just cannot see finding common cause with fundamentalists as an expression of progressiveness Sen. Walter Sobchak Aug 2016 #59

Superb post, I agree 100%. MicaelS Aug 2016 #75

So well said eissa Aug 2016 #78

+1 Marr Aug 2016 #79

This isn't our fight, anyway. We don't ban those dumb costumes. MADem Aug 2016 #108

Many on DU love right wing extremists Democat Aug 2016 #148

I think this is wrong. TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2016 #63

agreed with this but Younemeen Aug 2016 #158

I think face coverings should be against the law TexasMommaWithAHat Aug 2016 #159

agreed Younemeen Aug 2016 #160

I agree in principle Warpy Aug 2016 #64

technically, it is done for the comfort of muslim men Skittles Aug 2016 #81

What's amazing is progressives supporting this form of religious oppression davidn3600 Aug 2016 #82

Thanks I thought for a second I was losing my mind Egnever Aug 2016 #83

We're here! eissa Aug 2016 #92

The cultural left has a pathological hatred of the west Sen. Walter Sobchak Aug 2016 #90

Some alleged "progressives" really love to tell other people what to do. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #105

In what way does wearing a headscarf on a beach make someone else change their ways? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #121

I've seen burkinis at my local pool. Big deal. kwassa Aug 2016 #88

how nobel of them to tolerate the presence of their hosts in their homeland Sen. Walter Sobchak Aug 2016 #89

Yes, I would. You are correct. kwassa Aug 2016 #93

Not true everywhere.... davidn3600 Aug 2016 #95

Canada is a bastion of multiculturalism True Dough Aug 2016 #106

Oh, and I should add... True Dough Aug 2016 #110

+1. The amazing thing is that, in Europe, at least, Marr Aug 2016 #153

In the US it might be a private pool treestar Aug 2016 #165

I think your reasoning is flawed. kwassa Aug 2016 #177

K&R edible snails and frogs cost more than pork Jeffersons Ghost Aug 2016 #91

"systemic sexual assault" is 100% correct mwrguy Aug 2016 #94

"If women choose hijab..." Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2016 #126

You could have stopped at "I just cannot see forcing a woman". That in itself is wrong. Rex Aug 2016 #101

I think people should be free to choose what to wear and what to do with their bodies. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #104

I have spent much of my life living around muslims Sen. Walter Sobchak Aug 2016 #112

I agree with your point, but you bring up another problem in society Lordquinton Aug 2016 #111

Yes, that is what I was trying to say as well. Zing Zing Zingbah Aug 2016 #133

I see now, and I agree Lordquinton Aug 2016 #168

I am extremely antireligious Lunabell Aug 2016 #116

"Don't get raped." DetlefK Aug 2016 #122

I doubt that Muslim women asked the "Aryan savior" to come save them from their traditions. redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #123

Depends. Does Christianity demand that women cover up because men are sex-hungry animals? DetlefK Aug 2016 #125

... redgreenandblue Aug 2016 #131

If tradition does not generate equality, are we allowed to use laws to generate equality? DetlefK Aug 2016 #134

"Banning the Burkini might be the wrong tool, but something has to be done" muriel_volestrangler Aug 2016 #137

My suggestion would be so "not wrong", it would be "wrong" again. DetlefK Aug 2016 #139

Colour me backwards but I don't like the idea of ANYONE being forcrd to expose themselves. Photographer Aug 2016 #128

I agree wholeheartedly about the law tymorial Aug 2016 #136

Plenty of "secularists" are just as bigoted and authoritarian as any religious fundamentalist. Odin2005 Aug 2016 #141

Who cares what people wear at the beach? alarimer Aug 2016 #144

I'm apparently missing something here. Who's "forcing" anyone to do anything in this situation? WillowTree Aug 2016 #145

You're not missing anything. It's a rather hyperbolic interpretation of the issue. randome Aug 2016 #150

I agree. LWolf Aug 2016 #152

Freedom for all! Bikinis for all! GOLGO 13 Aug 2016 #161

Both Saudi Arabia and France have become completely brain-damaged. backscatter712 Aug 2016 #163

In this DU poll today 80% of DUer's voted to leave burkina-wearing women alone. pampango Aug 2016 #166

I wonder if nuns are allowed at the beach. N/T dilby Aug 2016 #170

Again with the false equivalency eissa Aug 2016 #179

France is legally an eclusively secular state. Atheist, really. tirebiter Aug 2016 #176

If it's really that simple reorg Aug 2016 #182

See here, "forcing a woman" are the three words we should be most focused on in this situation. Rex Aug 2016 #184

As I asked earlier, who's forcing anyone to do anything in this situation? WillowTree Aug 2016 #185

Well in any situation, you should not force a women to do something against her will. Rex Aug 2016 #186

I agree. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that no one should be forced. WillowTree Aug 2016 #187