General Discussion

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)

50. I don't think AZ ran it "all on their own".

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:22 PM

Jun 2012

Having worked in larger organizations, in which there are broad strategic initiatives, under which multiple supporting operations come into existence, and then are carried about by multiple "peer" departments, you see lots of deviation at the detail level.

Also, it is easy to imagine that the DOJ under Bush allowed greater freedom at that detail level out in the field. Once an organization starts down a path, even after you change leaders or executives, they often continue to move forward with a certain amount of inertia. I've seen plenty of instances in which a team continues to do what they see as "business as usual" by simply changing the terms they use to describe what they've always done.

If you want to know how to tell this is all politically motivated, all you have to do is ask the question "Why is the committee NOT bringing in Bush administration officials who started the program in the first place?" Because to do so would remove the focus from Holder. And Issa wants to throw the entire mess in Holder's lap.

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A little help understanding Fast and Furious controversy. [View all] Baitball Blogger Jun 2012 OP

Once again the administration has failed to blame their predecessors tularetom Jun 2012 #1

You can't win elections if you miss the easy ones. Baitball Blogger Jun 2012 #2

exactly. The Obama admin should have released the docs showing the involvement of the Bush admin. hahahareally Jun 2012 #3

The connection between F&F and Operation Wide Receiver are extremely flimsy or nonexistent. ScruffyTheJanitor Jun 2012 #12

You do not know what is in these documents. Giving them to Congress could get people KILLED. MADem Jun 2012 #13

That is quite true. ScruffyTheJanitor Jun 2012 #14

I think the fact that they didn't use EP until the security of the documents was actually at risk MADem Jun 2012 #17

That isn't what I am saying at all. I'm speaking from a "public perception" perspective. ScruffyTheJanitor Jun 2012 #19

Don't you get it? If it wasn't this, it would be something else. The GOP is desperate to find MADem Jun 2012 #23

The fact that the Republicans would look for anything and everything to condemn... ScruffyTheJanitor Jun 2012 #24

That is NOT NEWS. That is also not what this witch hunt is about, either. MADem Jun 2012 #30

"A federal agent was murdered due to a gun running operation" -- Bullshit. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #38

Circumstantial evidence is strong sarisataka Jun 2012 #41

And F&F weapons were the only ones available to the cartels? You can prove this? Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #43

Irrelevant to the issue at hand Lurks Often Jun 2012 #69

The fact that far more weapons were at hand for the cartels to use is irrelevant? Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #76

You can't prove a negative: Lurks Often Jun 2012 #78

No, I don't envy your position at all. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #79

Yawn Lurks Often Jun 2012 #84

I have seen nothing to make me think there is anything to this investigation other than Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #85

From the LA Times Lurks Often Jun 2012 #87

Oh, Jesus Fucking Christ. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #88

Then there is no point in us continuing this conversation, is there. n/t Lurks Often Jun 2012 #93

Right, but the point is that there are tens of thousands of guns smuggled to Mexico from the US. DanTex Jun 2012 #44

In theory sarisataka Jun 2012 #51

Brian Terry would be just as dead today if no F&F weapons had walked. n/t Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #52

You know that for sure? sarisataka Jun 2012 #53

Can you prove differently? Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #56

So you are ok that the ATF sarisataka Jun 2012 #57

I can get your bullshit from Free Republic, you know. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #58

It does not matter to me sarisataka Jun 2012 #59

And it cannot be proven that a F&F gun did kill Terry. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #77

It gets so boring when they try to change the subject rather than argue the issues. MADem Jun 2012 #71

Yeah, it's an attempt at argument by absurdity. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #82

About the only people in DC who are posturing about that death blatantly seek political gain. MADem Jun 2012 #86

Welcome to DU! mattclearing Jun 2012 #49

People have already been killed. Dr. Strange Jun 2012 #20

DUH. And who knows who, still living, is named in those documents? MADem Jun 2012 #25

Supposition on your part Lurks Often Jun 2012 #68

The President knows. I trust his judgment before I trust Crybaby Issa's. MADem Jun 2012 #70

I'll post part of another answer of mine in response to you: Lurks Often Jun 2012 #80

If it wasn't this, the ads would say something else. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #81

You apparently don't realize that Holder has tried--mightily--to cooperate with those clowns. MADem Jun 2012 #89

We disagree then n/t Lurks Often Jun 2012 #92

Issa needs to stop asking for documents that Holder is legally prohibited from providing. MADem Jun 2012 #96

Although MrDiaz Jun 2012 #4

Holder wants to give Bush et al a free pass to avoid Tejas Jun 2012 #6

You can count on them abusing it, regardless of what the Democrats do. Baitball Blogger Jun 2012 #8

Exactly my point MrDiaz Jun 2012 #9

This may just be the Republican's only target prior to the election. Baitball Blogger Jun 2012 #11

they were trying to blow this up MrDiaz Jun 2012 #31

Apparently he decided to swat him with the back of his hand. Baitball Blogger Jun 2012 #32

he is not white or republican MrDiaz Jun 2012 #34

It means that it's good that we have a president who doesn't trust Republicans, Baitball Blogger Jun 2012 #35

You think they haven't done this under BushCo?? Rip Van Winkle, is that you? MADem Jun 2012 #15

Two federal agents are dead. Tejas Jun 2012 #5

Got proof F&F weapons were the only guns the drug cartels had available? n/t Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #39

What kind of ignorant question is that? Tejas Jun 2012 #62

Because if the cartels have access to more weapons than just F&F Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #73

But that is not what happened, now is it? Tejas Jun 2012 #91

Without F&F weapons, it's what would have happened. n/t Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #94

you are forgetting, this is the government of transparency lol nt msongs Jun 2012 #7

re: you are forgetting, this is the government of transparency lol nt clang1 Jun 2012 #10

And protecting the names of federal agents who may or may not be still undercover.... MADem Jun 2012 #16

Two federal employees were killed by these guns. former9thward Jun 2012 #18

Nooooooo.....really? Who knew? MADem Jun 2012 #27

Exactly what Bush would have said about WMD documents. former9thward Jun 2012 #60

No it isn't. The two issues are not consonant with one another. MADem Jun 2012 #66

Tell that BS to the families of the two federal officers. former9thward Jun 2012 #67

Oh please--have you run out of talking points? MADem Jun 2012 #72

I thought guns didn't kill people? People kill people. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2012 #36

So its ok with you that we supply drug cartels with weapons. former9thward Jun 2012 #61

+1 Families deserve answers. emilyg Jun 2012 #37

Prove to me F&F weapons were the only ones available to the drug cartels. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #40

What a cynical reply. former9thward Jun 2012 #63

LOL, you think Holder's hiding evidence that the cartels had no other access to weapons Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #74

So the F&F weapons had no impact? Tejas Jun 2012 #64

The F&F weapons were a drop in the bucket for the problem of guns moving over the border, yes. Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #75

Actually, Holder has turned over documents that are directly related to the F&F program. JoePhilly Jun 2012 #21

Where did you find the info that Wide Receiver continued on to become F&F? ScruffyTheJanitor Jun 2012 #22

Part of the confusion is that the F&F operation, and its predicessor operations JoePhilly Jun 2012 #45

It appears, from what is public sarisataka Jun 2012 #47

I don't think AZ ran it "all on their own". JoePhilly Jun 2012 #50

I could see the idea sarisataka Jun 2012 #55

And WHOOOOOOP---there it is!! +1. nt MADem Jun 2012 #28

The Republicans think it was all a conspiracy theory in order to justify new gun control laws. DanTex Jun 2012 #26

Yea, CBS reported on that in December last year. ScruffyTheJanitor Jun 2012 #29

Reported on what? DanTex Jun 2012 #33

From CBS sarisataka Jun 2012 #46

Again, using information from F&F is totally different. DanTex Jun 2012 #48

The ATF was talking about sarisataka Jun 2012 #54

You mean the so-called "study" by Schumer and Feinstein? Tejas Jun 2012 #65

It's all about politics, in an election year slackmaster Jun 2012 #42

Just found this out at Americablog: NRA is scoring the Holder contempt vote Bolo Boffin Jun 2012 #83

Well, as Gomer would say "Sur-Prize, Sur-PRIZE!" Great find!!!! nt MADem Jun 2012 #90

Read the excellent WIKIPEDIA article on "gunwalking", at URL ProgressiveEconomist Jun 2012 #95